Halflings and Slings

[Dr. Zoom]

Originally posted by Mistwell:
Can something be both a ranged weapon and a thrown weapon at the same time? Why not? Sword & Fist, an official product, seems to think so. Customer Service of WOTC seem to thing so too.

So far the only people who think it cannot work that way are the rules strict constructionists. Me, I tend to be a moderate constructionist (and there are liberal constructionists as well). However, being a moderate or liberal rules constructionist does not mean that we are bending the rules, or making house rules, or following the rules any less than the strict constructionists. You see this in law as well, with appeals court judges. It's just a different way of viewing the same rules. So you strict constructionists keep preaching away how a particular chart in PHB lists slings as ranged weapons, and therefore the sling cannot gain the halfling thrown bonus. Us moderate and liberal constructionists will continue to grok the two concepts that: 1) the Halflings favor this weapon because it throws stones, which is where their throwing bonus comes from; and 2) the use of a sling, a ranged weapon, throws a stone or bullet solely with the force applied by the user of the sling (and not the force put directly into a bow while stringing it during its creation), thus also counting as a thrown weapon, for purposes of the halfling throwing bonus.

First, the "splatbooks" are not official core rulebooks. You can take or leave that material. I use some of the material for my games, but certainly not all of it. This quip on page 42 of S&F is an unfortunate error contained in a section that is only trying to give advice on how to maximize the effectiveness of each race, not a rules section on weapon types and categories. When you look at that section in the PH, you find that the sling is not a thrown weapon, but a projectile weapon. So the halfling bonus does not apply.

Second, WotC Customer Service is not the place to go to ask rules questions. Their answer and 99 cents buys me a big cup of black coffee. Seriously, their track record is not impressive, and this only makes it worse.

Finally, your categorization of strict/moderate/liberal rules people seems a bit of a stretch. You asked a question in a rules forum, got the answer according to the rules (where flavor text from splatbooks does not count), but you seem to dislike the answer. But it is the correct answer, regardless of your categorization. If you want to let halflings have the bonus for slings in your game, go right ahead. Many do. But it is not correct by the rules and so is a house rule, whether you are a strict constructionist or not.

 

[Mistwell]

First, the "splatbooks" are not official core rulebooks.

No, they are not "core" books, but they are official books, which is what I said. And they are relevant to the core rules, since they are from the same official source (WOTC) about the same subjects (in this case, slings).

You can take or leave that material. I use some of the material for my games, but certainly not all of it.

You can take or leave any material, even "core" rules material.

This quip on page 42 of S&F is an unfortunate error contained in a section that is only trying to give advice on how to maximize the effectiveness of each race, not a rules section on weapon types and categories.

And I say the listing of sling as a projectile-only weapon, instead of both projectile and thrown, is an unfortunate quip and not supposed to encompass 100% of the effects of a weapon (it's just supposed to be a helpful chart).

When you look at that section in the PH, you find that the sling is not a thrown weapon, but a projectile weapon. So the halfling bonus does not apply.

Actually, unless you are referring to the chart, if you actually look at the section that details what a sling is in the PHB, that is in fact where you find the text about the sling being the halflings favored weapon, and text about the use of a sling to throw stones (and then the text on halflings in the PHB is where you find the bonus to thrown weapons from the game of throwing stones). The PHB lends credibility to the argument that a sling is both a projectile and thrown weapon.

Second, WotC Customer Service is not the place to go to ask rules questions. Their answer and 99 cents buys me a big cup of black coffee. Seriously, their track record is not impressive, and this only makes it worse.

You can dislike WOTC customer service, but it IS the place to go to ask rules questions. From WOTC website, under the section titled: "Wizards Game Rules Clarification and Questions"

Wizards of the Coast's Customer Service is the best resource out there for game rulings...

Finally, your categorization of strict/moderate/liberal rules people seems a bit of a stretch. You asked a question in a rules forum, got the answer according to the rules (where flavor text from splatbooks does not count), but you seem to dislike the answer. But it is the correct answer, regardless of your categorization. If you want to let halflings have the bonus for slings in your game, go right ahead. Many do. But it is not correct by the rules and so is a house rule, whether you are a strict constructionist or not.

First, I didn't ask, I am just responding (like you).

Second, your view of what is "correct" is exactly what I am talking about. Strict constructionists tend to worship the PHB as if it is a biblical text, than no other text (other that "official errata" that is placed into the "official errata" text) can alter or interpret.

Moderate and liberal constructionists do what the rest of the non-strict constructionist people in the world do with all rules, including the laws of society. Sometimes parol evidence (look it up) is both useful and a legitemate source of rules interpetations and changes. In this case, when WOTC is the author of the rule, and WOTC publishes an additional book for use with those rules that seems to alter those rules, and then when WOTC tells you what the best source for rules interpretation is for their own rules (WOTC customer service), and that Customer Service also says the rule should be interpreted in a particular way that is in agreement with that supplement, then you now have a reasonable iterpretation of that rule that disagrees with the PHB. It isn't "incorrect" to intepret the rule that way, and it isn't a house rule. It is just as correct as your interpretation of the rule without use of parol evidence.

But you strict constructionists keep pounding that podium and preaching "it is commanded that thou shalt worship no other rules text before the core rules text". I applaud you for your consistency at least.

 

[Caliban]

*shrug* there is no such thing as a weapn that is both "thrown" and "projectile" at the same time. Some weapons can be used as one or the other, but you only get the bonuses for the mode you are using it in. Skiprock can be thrown, or it can be loaded into a projectile weapon (i.e. sling) for greater range.

Thrown weapons can travel a maximum of 5 range increments, and allow you to apply your strength bonus to damage (shuriken are an exception).

Projectile weapons can shoot their ammunition a maximum of 10 range increments and do not allow your strength bonus to damage, only your strength penalty. (Mighty weapons are a specific exception to this.)

How can something be both thrown and projectile at the same time?

A sling may be a popular weapon among halflings, but that doesn't mean they get a +1 with it. Like I said, it's a fine house rule, but it's pretty clearly not in the rules.

You can call yourself whatever you like, and call me whatever names you like, but it's still a house rule. It's not a big deal, everyone makes house rules for their campaign. I've got several house rules for my own campaign.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

The list in the PH is not a "quip." I know that WotC Customer Service said this, but if you go by everything they have said, you will be in trouble.

And all this stict constructionist nonsense aside, the PH is clear what kind of weapon a sling is. No other source, official or not, has changed the sling to a thrown weapon. That is why I responded as I did.

Oh, and I don't "worship" the PH or speak in Elizabethan English.

 

[Mistwell]

First let me say I am sorry if my comments on strict constructionism came off as snappish. It wasn't my intent, but i do think I was overly harsh.

Second, I think we have a good group of opinions here for the original poster to come to his/her own conclusions. I think the sling is considered a thrown weapon for purposes of the halflings thrown weapon bonus, under an intepretation of existing rules. Others think the existing rules do not allow for this, but that it would make a reasonable house rule. That's probably enough for the poster to come to a conclusion.

Third and finally, I have created a new thread for discussion of methods of rules interpretation vs. house ruling. I invite everyone from this thread to post comments there (and I promise to try to be more civil).

 

[Zaruthustran]

Wow

Wow, a thread that morphed into a classic Internet argument, only to be concluded civilly and usefully. Amazing! Good show, everyone.

-z

Token answer to thread's question: no, they don't. But give it to 'em anyway.

 

[Darklone]

Actually there are some boards where guys like you and me talk and discuss civilized with each other. Boring sometimes, but comfortable.

Just let me chime in a little bit and add that the Elves weapon proficiency with bows has been related to their long lives (before adventuring. Can you tell me what a standard D&D treehugger is going to do his first 120 years? He's been adult for a lifetime! Why not heading into a human city at 40?).

That's why IMHO halflings don't get the sling proficiency for free. Besides, nearly every coreclass has that proficiency, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Cymsdale]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback.

Actually, I was pretty secure before I even asked the question that Halflings do not get the bonus with slings.

However, everyone must admit that there is some ambiguity involved in this matter, and I was pretty must just curious on where the community stood on this issue.

It certainly does seem the intention is there, and I believe issues such as this should be settled with official errata; even if it means there is no change!

My halfling is a druid anyway, I don't need the bonus to be any good :-D