Harassment in gaming

[Rottle]

Wow, way to turn that one around. Considering I was one of the early voices for boycotting any convention that didn't have a harassment policy in place, I find this amusing.

My point is that, the moment women start talking about their personal experiences with harassment, men pop up immediately to point out the few cases of false accusations as if the dozen annual cases of false accusations wipes away the hundreds of thousands if not millions of cases of real harassment. Funnily enough, it's almost always preceded by statements like "I don't condone harassment, but--" which sounds to me a lot like "I'm not racist, but--"

Way to miss my point ..twice.

First point of my post was about how if the court find him not guilty he is innocent.

Second part was while a few bad cases will appear it doesn't mean we shouldn't still have the laws and enforce them.

My second post was made in hopes you would actually reread my first one.....

I will attempt to be more clear in the future.

 

[billd91]

Bill, in the US, "innocent until proven guilty," is still the way it goes. If the case wasn't enough to prove him guilty, that's how we have to take it. We were not in the courtroom

From a legal standpoint, sure. But we don't have to simply because charges were dropped or the accused was acquitted, nor are those necessarily indicative of the truth of the situation.

 

[Janx]

I feel that the post linked in the thread start is important. To me it is important to read accounts like this, regardless of tone.

Because I am not the target of the described behaviour, I need other people to explain to me what it looks like, what it feels like and what the consequences are. If strong language is involved, so be it. I need to learn more to make sure I don't inadvertantly enable the behaviour described.

Being more aware of this will not detract from my enjoyment of this hobby, and might enhance the enjoyment others get out if it. A win-win situation for me.

/Maggan

I'm a zillion posts late to the game, but I think Maggan gets it.

Good listening skills involves detecting what the actual message is, and giving benefit of the doubt. The author of the article's point is that women are being harrassed and worse. I could give a rat's arse about who doesn't like chainmail bikini art. it's art on a piece of paper that you choose to buy or look at or not. But getting spoken to in a disrespectful manner or groped or worse is flat out wrong.

I have often wondered (in the offtopic forum even) why the good people of Iraq and Afghanistan put up with the bad guys over there. Surely they too can chop people's heads off and light things on fire, just aimed at the bad guys. But it never works out that way. That's why the KKK is happy to burn a cross on Danny's lawn, but nobody tars and feathers a skin head and drags him down main street.

Same problem with bad behavior at cons and game shops. We don't notice it or get involved to stop it or call it out and make a scene.

Here's a story that happened to me last week. Not as bad as what this author talks about, but I am ashamed to say I didn't say something. I was on Xbox live, in a party of mixed individuals in a game. Meaning we each knew somebody else, but not everybody knew everbody. Some kid spouts out "Die Jew" and later "KKK" while playing. It happened pretty quick, and I didn't say anything. I should have.

I am certain, that we (all of us, male, female, other, reptiles, whites, blacks, Sleestak, etc) do not notice things and do not stop to get involved when we think we might be noticing something. I don't know what it is. Probably social pressure to not make a scene, etc. But we gotta fight it and stand up for anybody getting hurt. Everytime.

That might make a scene. That might even start a fight. But Nathaniel Hale once said, "my only regret is that I have but one life to give for my country." Maybe we all need to take a hint and stick out neck out for our fellow human beings, regardless of the risk. Because Evil wins every time Good stands by and does nothing.

 

[Umbran]

But we don't have to simply because charges were dropped or the accused was acquitted

Actually, we kinda do. Continued insinuation that he's guilty would likely amount to defamation - slander or libel, depending on the form.

...nor are those necessarily indicative of the truth of the situation.

I see. And you, who I presume were *not* in the courtroom, *not* presented with the evidence, testimony or arguments, have a better handle on the "truth" of the situation? Really?

This is not to say that the court got it right. Courts make mistakes, sure. But the judgement of persons who were not privy to the evidence isn't what I'd call reliable, either.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

From a legal standpoint, sure. But we don't have to simply because charges were dropped or the accused was acquitted, nor are those necessarily indicative of the truth of the situation.

Which sounds like you're saying that "the court of public opinion" trumps the actual courts...

 

[Springheel]

...yet people still feel the need to point out the one or two cases of "false charges" as if it makes the harassment problem go away.

And who is doing that, exactly?

Nuance is actually a thing. It's possible to be aware of a problem and at the same time prefer a solution that is not easily abused.

 

[Umbran]

Nuance is actually a thing. It's possible to be aware of a problem and at the same time prefer a solution that is not easily abused.

There is no indication that it is "easily" abused. A couple of known cases do not a pattern of easy abuse make.

It also seems a little odd, in that this isn't actually an issue of harassment, but a basic innate characteristic of the justice system - it is not perfect. Yes, you can get false accusations of harassment. You can also have them for any and every other crime. But I'm not hearing calls to tear down the justice system. For all those other things, the failures of the system are an acceptable risk, but not for this?

That doesn't sound even-handed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is no indication that it is "easily" abused. A couple of known cases do not a pattern of easy abuse make.

It also seems a little odd, in that this isn't actually an issue of harassment, but a basic innate characteristic of the justice system - it is not perfect. Yes, you can get false accusations of harassment. You can also have them for any and every other crime. But I'm not hearing calls to tear down the justice system. For all those other things, the failures of the system are an acceptable risk, but not for this?

That doesn't sound even-handed.

Hence my post:

There are also well documented cases of people being wrongfully convicted of theft, rape, murder and everything else, sometimes accidentally, sometimes as part of a deliberate attempt to deflect suspicion from the actual criminals or even just to harm someone. It is an unfortunate and unavoidable part of the legal system.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

Blackstone's Formulation.

Be careful that the cure isn't more toxic than the disease.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Blackstone's Formulation.

Certainly, but even so, Blackstone's formulation has limits. Rhetorically, he chose a 10:1 ratio. If pressed, he might have relented to a 20:1 ratio. But would he go for 100:1 or 1000:1? At some point, he would be forced to accept a certain number of innocents will be harmed by a judicial/penal sytem, no matter how good, because there are all aspects of administering it are subject to human error.

In economics, we talk about the optimum level of criminal behavior or evil. At some point, the economic and social costs of combatting any given form of injustice are higher than benefits society, or even the individual harmed by the injustice.