Has anyone got any flak for buildung a character that wasnt optimized?

Mezuka

Hero
The only time, as a DM, I gave flak to a player is when the person wanted to play a deaf and mute bard who used a small drum to communicate. The person insisted. His character didn't last very long. Not even a complete session. I did not try actively to kill his character. He did that all by himself getting lost in the sours of a large city.

The other players were glad when he rolled a new character. The old character put pressure and communications issues on the rest of the party, no one signed on for to begin with.
 

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pogre

Legend
I have only seen it at Adventure League. Nothing like what is in the OP, but folks frustrated by a build that is suboptimal and they view as weighing the party down. I think the nature of Adventure League lends itself to this cropping up more often.
 

aramis erak

Legend
I have only seen it at Adventure League. Nothing like what is in the OP, but folks frustrated by a build that is suboptimal and they view as weighing the party down. I think the nature of Adventure League lends itself to this cropping up more often.
I've seen it outside AL, but nowhere near as often. Mostly PF, D&D3.x, GURPS, and Champions players. These games have strong rewards for optimal selections in mechanical benefits...

Now, Fate, where the aspects are both advantage and disadvantage... It's much harder to optimize. Especially since they're broad and dual use.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
The only time, as a DM, I gave flak to a player is when the person wanted to play a deaf and mute bard who used a small drum to communicate. The person insisted. His character didn't last very long. Not even a complete session. I did not try actively to kill his character. He did that all by himself getting lost in the sours of a large city.

The other players were glad when he rolled a new character. The old character put pressure and communications issues on the rest of the party, no one signed on for to begin with.

This is where this tends to get particularly sticky sometimes (and its profound outside of mechanical issues, with some choices of character personality); for the most part most groups assume you'll just accept the other person's PC, but people still expect to design their PC without talking to the rest of the group. One of those things does not belong with the other.

This doesn't mean, as I've mentioned, that some groups aren't, well, overly tight about it, but it does mean that decisions you make in character design don't just effect your play, and other people should have some input on whether they want to deal with it. Where the issue gets complicated is when their input is reasonable and when it isn't.
 

Mezuka

Hero
This is where this tends to get particularly sticky sometimes (and its profound outside of mechanical issues, with some choices of character personality); for the most part most groups assume you'll just accept the other person's PC, but people still expect to design their PC without talking to the rest of the group. One of those things does not belong with the other.

This doesn't mean, as I've mentioned, that some groups aren't, well, overly tight about it, but it does mean that decisions you make in character design don't just effect your play, and other people should have some input on whether they want to deal with it. Where the issue gets complicated is when their input is reasonable and when it isn't.
That is why I reinstated creating characters in group instead of alone.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Now, Fate, where the aspects are both advantage and disadvantage... It's much harder to optimize. Especially since they're broad and dual use.

I suspect the place you'd see it there is making sure they are broad. If you're willing to buy in to the idea you want to have a lot of way to acquire fate points to fuel things, and want to have a lot of things you can fuel, you want Aspects to be as broad as possible, whether that fits your conception or not.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
That is why I reinstated creating characters in group instead of alone.

As I noted earlier, there are people who simply won't get it done that way, unless the game is very, very simple. The want to spend a long period of time trying things out and seeing what they think of the result, and they just won't get that done within one session.

It's why I try to get it done in email, and set a hard deadline a week in advance--and people still sometimes don't do it.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
A huge part of the problem here is that there are two meanings of "optimize(d)" and, as a result, two meanings of its negation, and unfortunately most critics, be they the "ew, optimizers" crowd or the "your character is bad and you should feel bad" crowd, use them interchangeably when they emphatically are not interchangeable.

"Optimized," in the first sense, means "making informed and effective decisions." Example being, in 3e, a spellcaster actually must have a spellcasting ability score of 10+spell level to cast ANY spells of that level whatsoever, so anyone wishing to play a full caster should take as high a main stat as possible. Trying to play an Int 8 Wizard isn't going to be fun or funny unless you derive enjoyment from trolling your fellow players, because an Int 8 Wizard in 3rd edition cannot cast spells, and thus has exactly one functional class feature, a familiar. (Well, and I guess they can still learn new spells, but they cannot cast them nor make any magic items.) This is "soft" optimizing. I would actually say that most groups expect at least a very minimal amount of this kind of "optimizing," because literally useless hangers-on are not generally well-liked. I refer to this as the "optimization vs anti-optimization" dichotomy, where the negation means intentionally and severely weakening a character solely to make them inept, and the positive means making reasonable choices within the space of rules, not necessarily the best choices. (E.g., if an option is somewhat weaker than another but far more flavorful, especially if it can be compensated for elsewhere, then it is 100% valid to cal a character doing that "optimized" by this definition, even if it is not as good as it could be.)

"Optimized," in the second sense, is much more strict. It requires always taking the mathematically most superior choice at absolutely every step. If you ever choose anything that is not mathematically best or indistinguishable from it, you are playing "wrong." By this definition, the negation of "optimized" is (more or less) "ordinary," or rather "un-optimized." A character that has no specific relation to the absolute bleeding-edge best options. This is "hard" optimizing. I refer to this dichotomy as "min-maxing vs un-optimizing."

My problem is, I find 90%+ of critics who claim to dislike "optimizers" exclusively treat them as though they are in the "min-maxing" school of thought. That is, painting absolutely everyone they claim to disagree with as being the worst, most extreme, most judgmental version of "optimizing" there can be. I do not deny that such people exist, as any look at the travails of MMO designers will show you. But it sure as heck would be nice if I wasn't having to fight a constant battle to not be strawmanned as one of them.

An issue I have is, frankly, a feeling of major bias and harsh judgment from people claiming to be defending against that very thing. That is, at least with a fair number of folks that claim to pursue what I prefer to call "un-optimized" ("well, X may not be best, but it sounds fun to me") rather than "anti-optimized" ("I traded away all of my combat ability for more underwater basketweaving, so don't expect me to fight"), I find them quick to forgive the latter when it appears. Yet they are also constantly hunting for the slightest whiff of min-maxing, even in the most benign and well-meaning approaches. That's incredibly frustrating. The frustration doubles down when personal concerns (e.g., not directed at anyone or anything other than the speaker's own self and own characters) are treated at best with extreme flippancy, and at worst with outright caustic contempt.

I do some optimizing. As part of that, I make judgment calls. Sometimes, that means choosing, with knowledge and forethought, to take something weaker. When I do so, it is for a reason; as an example, I prefer to play Paladins in 4e that have lower "primary" stats (16 in both Str and Cha) so I can have higher other stats (low but decent stats in everything but Dex--itself an intentional suboptimal choice, sacrificing a little Initiative to have a good Int modifier because I prefer characters who are more cerebral.) I care about things like, "if I do X, I am accepting that I will have a 10 percentage point lower chance of success, possibly forever, but certainly for a long time. Am I getting something worth that price?" And, yes, when it comes to things like races, I do think it's a questionable price to pay, and am happy that WotC has taken the stance it has; for inclusivity, support of a player's preferred flavors, and (yes) optimization in either sense, this is an improvement. But as an optimizer, I can also see that this change, like all changes, has costs. I just don't see those costs as particularly onerous, and (more importantly) I see them as extremely easily mitigated without much effort.

If someone has their heart set on an un-optimized effort or approach, more power to them. I do that plenty myself (e.g. my "ALL the skills, ALL of them" half-elf Rogue 1/Cleric 1/Bard N character with an IMO reasonable, solid backstory as to why she does what she does and where her skills have come from). But if someone appears to be paying a price without knowing, being excessively cavalier about the price they're paying, or outright pursuing ineptitude (the aforementioned 3e Int 8 Wizard), I will likely comment. Similarly, I will speak out against options that I feel carry too great a price (be it a direct one or an opportunity cost) for their return, which is part of why I have so strongly criticized the Fighter/Wizard divide. I am firmly committed to the principle that for classes and races, a reasonably close approximation of equality and even-playing-field is best for BOTH those who wish to optimize AND those who do not.
 

innerdude

Legend
Despite the horrid, condescending rhetoric of the blog referenced in the OP, there is a small grain of truth hidden within. Despite feeling an urge to punch the author in the face, he is not wrong in saying race+class+abilities are not the only way of expressing uniqueness in a character concept.

In my current Star Wars game, racial heritage choice has had no effect on how the players engage with the game world. Which isn't surprising, since it's largely impossible to mentally conceive how being a rodian, or a gran, or an ithorian would actually inform the character's worldview (galacticview?).

In my experience, 98% off the time the heritage options available in a game are only there to present fidelity to the assumed setting and to create some modicum of statistical differentiation (trandoshans and wookies are strong, twi'leks are agile, bothans are cunning, etc. etc.).

Rarely does heritage choice impact characterization beyond the most basic stereotypes. And in the case of FFG Star Wars, even the statistical elements are bare bones. On an actual character differentiation level, choice of heritage isn't much more than a basic appearance descriptor and a bump to a single base stat.

And again, despite the horrible vitriol with which the message is delivered, I can't help but recognize that I too have a bias against players who feel compelled to try and come up with some "totally special" combination of heritage+traits, as if being a half-tiefling, half-mindflayer bard/ranger/warlock is the only way they can express their uniqueness, as if being a basic human fighter or elf ranger is beneath them.

I don't care in the least if someone chooses suboptimal options for a character if the intention isn't to subvert the underlying zeitgeist of the campaign. In my experience, players who insist on special snowflake characters are more disruptive than players who make sub optimal character builds.

Now obviously, this isn't mutually exclusive. One can be disruptive across both axes (overly/underly optimized | lacking campaign fidelity). But for the most part, the intent and application matters more than the numbers on the character sheet.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
And again, despite the horrible vitriol with which the message is delivered, I can't help but recognize that I too have a bias against players who feel compelled to try and come up with some "totally special" combination of heritage+traits, as if being a half-tiefling, half-mindflayer bard/ranger/warlock is the only way they can express their uniqueness, as if being a basic human fighter or elf ranger is beneath them.

I can look at this both ways; on one hand the special-snowflake tendencies (especially if the whole group has it) can feel tiresome.

But at the other end, you can have people who have a "been there, done that" feeling toward the more common options, and that's more likely to be true the longer they've been in the hobby. I've got a decent sized dose of it myself anymore, having been gaming more than 40 years now.
 

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