Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[d20Dwarf]

The idea that 1e and 2e characters weren't walking around with a Christmas tree full of magic goodies is just so far removed from my experience that I have trouble believing it. For a "standard" six person party in 1e to have enough magic for the paladin to feel the pinch means they should be toting around over SIXTY magic items.

Then again, I still remember fondly my 1e paladin with his hammer of thunderbolts, girdle of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power care of the G series adventures. Nothing like being able to kill ancient huge red dragons in a couple of rounds.

At some point the "Christmas tree full of magic items" became synonymous with "1e is just as bad as 3e!" when it really misses the point entirely. I think it's addressing the character abilities versus magic items when defining what you can do, which isn't the problem in general. In my opinion, there's a specific problem when every character has to have cloak of resistance +x, stat boost +x, weapon +x, and AC +x just to be able to fight the creatures the game assumes you can fight. Even if the wealth by level was reasonable (it's too low at the bottom and too high at the top, imo), much of it is sucked into these mundane items that don't carry a lot of excitement with them.

Personally I loved the amount of magic items available in 1e and 2e, and it didn't matter that they defined your character's abilities...they were, in my experience, unique. Only one guy in the party might have a +2 weapon, so if you encountered a monster that took that to hit it, that guy was up front no matter who he was! Now there's this weird egalitarianism going on among characters so that nobody's feelings are hurt or left out of combat. It all comes back to the wealth/CR system restricting game options and the level system shooting characters through levels so fast that it becomes its own end rather than something cool that happens occasionally. Up until 3e I had a grand total of TWO 16th-level characters and ONE 12th-level character, and I remember them fondly. In 3e, however, those are no big deal, and I can whip up a 16th-level character in no time flat, thanks to the Easy, Cookie Cutter Character Creation System (TM)! Playing 16th level in 3e feels the same as playing 2nd level, except that everyone in the party has to be flying, invisible, displaced, ethereal, hasted, using a silver/cold iron/adamantine weapon with a base damage of 37, and with 17 potions injectable as a free action just to be able to survive, since all the monsters at that CR assume they are.

 

[Glyfair]

Of course, a dungeon master isn't obligated to use monsters that can only be hit by magic weapons in any edition.

That's true with any edition. Why complain that assumptions are made about player equipment with certain monsters if you can just not use them? Because DMs want to use them.

 

[Glyfair]

I also noted that in those threads, he never once gave a single xp point for any of the magic that was in the module.

Well, I distinctly remember Gary stating you didn't get any xp for magic items unless you sold them (thus having the choice of getting xp, or of using the magic item). Given the lack of "magic stores" in some campaigns, it wasn't easy to sell them.

Of course, this lead to the contradiction in early D&D assumptions that made some players question the soundness of them. Players were expected to sell magic, but weren't supposed to be buying it (without jumping through hoops).

I've said this before and I'll repeat it here. A 1e and 2e paladin was limited to TEN magic items. TEN. That means that every other character was assumed to have more than ten. A limitation which applies to everyone is hardly a limitation to any one is it?

That doesn't necessarily follow. Rangers were limited to only three working together at the same time. Does that mean that the other classes were assumed to have more than three working together?

I'm really suprised in these discussions how rarely the main thing that changed D&D dynamics (at least in this area). The relative ease with which players can create magic items. In prior editions it was incredibly rare for PCs to be making magic items. Even scrolls and potions required mid-level characters. Plus, you were expected to jump through many hoops to make them (want to make a potion of healing, better get that unicorn horn).

 

[d20Dwarf]

I'm really suprised in these discussions how rarely the main thing that changed D&D dynamics (at least in this area). The relative ease with which players can create magic items. In prior editions it was incredibly rare for PCs to be making magic items. Even scrolls and potions required mid-level characters. Plus, you were expected to jump through many hoops to make them (want to make a potion of healing, better get that unicorn horn).

Quite right, and that ties into the speed-leveling and cloned equipment problems...in a system that requires you to have x,y,z and to upgrade x,y,z every 26-39 encounters, you have to be able to have easy access to a wide variety of magic items, either through magic shops, DM recognition, or the ability to make your own (it's the thought that counts, right? ).

 

[Imp]

It wasn't assumed in AD&D that high level characters would be going after arch-devils or other things that needed a +3 weapon to hit! You could easily spend your time cleaning out lairs of orcs threatening your stronghold or some such. You might not be getting xp for the kills but you certainly would for the loot (the major source of xp in AD&D, as I remember it.) You usually did have a +2/ something special weapon by 8th or 9th level, though, so lycanthropes and such weren't anything especially hard.

The notion that wizards or anyone in AD&D would be regularly "bumping" levels once they got high enough is hilarious.

I do think part of the problem with the 3e Christmas tree is that it's so generic: bonuses in slots for everyone whee. What about the dude who wants to run around in an Apparatus of Kwalish?

* never, ever pulled off the hammer of thunderbolts trifecta; it was quite enough for me to dream of swords of sharpness or that sweet rod of flailing in UA thank you very much! *

 

[The Shaman]

I'm really suprised in these discussions how rarely the main thing that changed D&D dynamics (at least in this area). The relative ease with which players can create magic items. In prior editions it was incredibly rare for PCs to be making magic items. Even scrolls and potions required mid-level characters. Plus, you were expected to jump through many hoops to make them (want to make a potion of healing, better get that unicorn horn).

Yep - this is something else that Quasqueton overlooked in drawing comparisons between the magical wealth of 1e and 3e characters.

It's also a great source of adventures in 1e...

"Okay, troops, we need to hire a ship."

"What for?"

"Giant squid fishing trip!"

 

[Pants]

Loads of them?

From the 2e Monstrous Manual:

Ju-Ju Zombie - Requires +1 or greater to hit
Yugoloth, Lesser and greater
Wraith
Wolfwere - +1 or cold iron
Vampire
Troll, Spectral - magic or silver
Troll, Spirit - magic
Titan
Tarrasque - +1 or better
Tanar'ri, Marilith - +2 or better
Tanar'ri, Balor - +3 or better
Swanmay - +1 or better
Spectre - +1 or better
Slaad, Blue - +1 or better
Skeleton Warrior
Shadow - +1 or better
Rakshasa - +1 or better
Rakshasa, Greater - +2 or better
Poltergeist - silver or magic
Pheonix - +3 or better
Peryton - +1 or better
Mummy, Greater - +1 to +4 to hit
Mist, Crimson Death - +1 or better
Lycanthrope - silver or magic
Lich - +1 or better
Lich, Demilich - +4 or better (plus other exceptions)
Jackalwere - cold iron or magic
Intellect Devourer - +3 or better
Imp/Quasit - silver/cold iron or magic
Huecuva - silver or magic
Haunt - silver or magic
Golem, Glass/Stone/Flesh/Clay - +2 or better
Golem, Iron - +3 or better
Ghost - silver or magic
Gargoyle/Margoyle - +1 or better
Elemental, Tempest/Skriaxi - +2 or better
Elemental, Salamander - +1 or better
Elemental, Aerial Servant - +1 or better
Elemental, Fire/Air/Earth/Water - +2 or better
Dog, Moon - +2 or better
Crypt Thing - Magic weapons
Baatezu, Pit Fiend - +3 or better
Baatezu, Abishai - +1 or better

 

[The Shaman]

(List snipped for sake of brevity.)

As with 1e, the list is heavy with fiends and undead.

Now, how many critters in the 2e MM do not require +1 or better magical weapons to fight?

 

[Pants]

As with 1e, the list is heavy with fiends and undead.

Now, how many critters in the 2e MM do not require +1 or better magical weapons to fight?

You're avoiding a central issue here. In 1e and 2e, many of these creatures could not be physcially harmed without magic. In 3.x, if you hit them hard enough, you can hurt them, making magic weapons nice, but not totally necessary.

 

[Menexenus]

For me, and I'm willing to bet for more than a few of you, that a lot of the perceived problems with D&D stem from the fact that it doesn't do a good job at mirroring the kind of fantasy (movies, literature) that we grew up with.

D&D only reflects itself. Eberron (and Ptolus by the sound of it too) are perfect examples of this - campaigns/cities built around the D&D ruleset which bear little resemblance to of any of the style of fantasy I recognize. The kind of popular fantasy that got me into playing the game in the first place (Conan, Red Sonja, Lanhkmar, Elric, LotR, King Arthur, Beowulf, The Greek Heroes, the Norse Heroes...).

Now when I was younger, I ran "games" and not really campaigns, so it didn't matter to me all that much. D&D players are relatively easy to find and it was, essentially, the only game in town. But when you start building your own homebrews and try to run games closer to the fantasy that got you playing in the first place, you find that the D&D ruleset doesn't do a great job of it. And the higher level you go, the greater departure from the style of anything you recognize.

I remember one of my players once commenting on how HL play in D&D beared no resemblance to what he had envisioned an "EPIC FANTASY BATTLE" to be like. And you know... he was right. D&D, whether you love it or not, is it's own unique brand of fantasy and is really only really suited to running "D&D" worlds.

I really have to agree with A'Koss (and the OP) that there is a bit of a bait-and-switch with D&D. You read about wizards and orcs and hobbits in Tolkien, and then you find this game D&D that lets you play a halfling (kind of like a hobbit), lets you cast spells, and lets you fight orcs. And you start to think that this game models fantasy fiction. And I think that even at the inception of D&D, this misconception was actively encouraged by the designers.

But D&D itself is a much more high magic setting than almost any popular fantasy novel has described. So there can be a feeling of let down when you realize that D&D will never quite be like the fantasy novels you have read (until you realize that that's probably for the best).

However, I disagree with the OP when he tries to localize this "problem" with 3rd edition. I agree with those who have said that this high-magic bias has been there from the beginning.