Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

[Nepenthe]

Breath weapon is supernatural. Dragon shamans have breath weapons. Does being a wizard make sense when you could just be a dragon shaman?

It's not just that, why would you be a wizard when you could be a sorcerer is basically the same argument

It just boils down to "fighters can't have nice things", not that the book is BWOKEN!(tm) or that it is "too Japanese"

/N

 

[hong]

Reminds me of the saying, "it's not broken as long as the fighter can't do it". Can't remember who said it here.

 

[Henry]

As for what the Iron Heart Surge can end, I think that the new 3.5 FAQ clarifies that...

I read over it, and it really doesn't specify one way or the other. Thing is, I can't see it being negated by Iron Heart Surge, both because of aesthetics, and because of legal wrangling. (It affects items and spells, not creatures - it technically doesn't even affect creatures that use magic for sustenance, such as undead and golems...)

 

[hong]

What gets me about the art in Bo9S is the page background.

I know it's supposed to be a serpent or something, but the damn thing just looks like a coffee stain.

It actually says "D&D".

 

[Nepenthe]

I read over it, and it really doesn't specify one way or the other. Thing is, I can't see it being negated by Iron Heart Surge, both because of aesthetics, and because of legal wrangling. (It affects items and spells, not creatures - it technically doesn't even affect creatures that use magic for sustenance, such as undead and golems...)

Yeah, I should have read it before posting, I even had that pdf open

I'd definitely say that area-effect spells are outside the scope of that ability

/N

 

[Sejs]

*snip*

If that's really what you think, then no you did not give the book a fair shake.

 

[Thaedrus]

Basically the argument about whether Bo9S belongs in D&D comes down to the

"fighters should not get to have nice abilities", or the "melee characters should not do anything they couldn't do in real life" camp

verses the

"if casters can do cooler things, why can't melee characters" and the "I like this kind of cinematic crazy crap" camp.

I personally don't see why, in a world of duskblades, PsiWarriors, and paladins who can cast spells, not to mention the physics suspending things that full casters can do, would have no place for warriors who have taken their martial skills into the fantastic realms.

D&D attracts people who are almost fanatically creative and open minded, and if you are on these boards it places you in the nerdy extremes of this already fringe group. Take up the challenge, bring your near godlike creative powers to bear, and admit that you can bring this new creative and fantastic expression of nerdhood into your own personal metaverse. We all know that flavor is imminently mutable, so spice to ones taste, but do not say that this interesting, fun, and creative new mechanic "has no place in REAL D&D". What does real even mean in D&D?

Bo9S expresses the crappy editing of most of WotC products these days. Get over it and use the creativity that it brings out. Even with the editing and even slight mechanical vagueries (sp?) it is still the most interesting thing to come out of WotC since 3E.

 

[Mort]

Using those examples is a straw man argument, as I have placed no objections to any of the maneuvers you have given as examples. Two of the three are already represented as feats.

Cutting walls of adamatine in half with a single stroke, jumping twenty feet straight into the air, shrugging off axe blows and then healing the damage when you counter attack, throwing your sword in such a fashion that it returns to you, and so forth are what I'm talking about.

It does not feel right to me.

My current fighter-mage can do every one of those things easily, with the exception of cutting an admantine wall in half with one blow (but seeing as he can passwall it or any number of other things, the result is the same).

As for not "feeling right" that's an opinion and simply can't be argued with.

It doesn't "feel right" to me, however, to let Wizards, psionicists, Druids etc. get more and more mythic as level increases, but to continue to relegate the fighter to just hitting things with a sword from level 1-20.

 

[Razz]

Basically the argument about whether Bo9S belongs in D&D comes down to the

"fighters should not get to have nice abilities", or the "melee characters should not do anything they couldn't do in real life" camp

verses the

"if casters can do cooler things, why can't melee characters" and the "I like this kind of cinematic crazy crap" camp.

I personally don't see why, in a world of duskblades, PsiWarriors, and paladins who can cast spells, not to mention the physics suspending things that full casters can do, would have no place for warriors who have taken their martial skills into the fantastic realms.

D&D attracts people who are almost fanatically creative and open minded, and if you are on these boards it places you in the nerdy extremes of this already fringe group. Take up the challenge, bring your near godlike creative powers to bear, and admit that you can bring this new creative and fantastic expression of nerdhood into your own personal metaverse. We all know that flavor is imminently mutable, so spice to ones taste, but do not say that this interesting, fun, and creative new mechanic "has no place in REAL D&D". What does real even mean in D&D?

Bo9S expresses the crappy editing of most of WotC products these days. Get over it and use the creativity that it brings out. Even with the editing and even slight mechanical vagueries (sp?) it is still the most interesting thing to come out of WotC since 3E.

*cheers* Right on!

 

[WhatGravitas]

And it's not a great book. It's named after nine weapons which use rules from another book which is just about the worst product in D&D.

But this doesn't affect the rest at all, right? I mean WoL may be a stinker, but just because some fluff and less important part of the book incorporates it, it doesn't invalidate the rest, right? Please, don't try to pull such a strawman

The milieu has no place in a conventional Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or Krynn or Mystara. The Knights of Solamnia and Neraka, for instance, do not know kung fu.

Yeah, but look at the Warblade. Not Kung-Fuish stuff. Let's see:

Diamond Mind: The thing about Concentration is the only thing that sticks out, as well as the save-counters (i.e. replacing a save with Concentration). But the rest embodies to archetypical Swashbuckler *very* well. I mean massively powerful attacks with a Rapier (a favoured weapon of the school), that are well-planned and precise? TOTALLY wire-fu. If it really bothers you, change the key skill to bluff, and it is a Dashing Swordsman!

Iron Heart: Hardly supernatural stuff. It consists of hitting harder (akin to a pre-packaged power attack), hitting two or more foes at once (a Whirlwind Attack, that doesn't suck), disarming foes (totally new, riiight?), and some AC-helping counters (i.e. classical parrying of attacks). I can totally see that as "Knight School".

Stone Dragon: Again, the most supernatural thing is getting DR for a round... and the Barbarian has perma-DR. The rest: Damage-boosting (Hitting stuff harder). Impeding actions (basically "Ouch, this hit HARD"). Totally Dwarven, really.

Tiger Claw: Okay, this discipline ONLY consists of jumping over your foe and dealing more damage or attacking with two weapons or more weapons at once. The perfect Drizzt Do'Urden/Ranger/Two-Weapon Fightning embodiment. Again, I assume that two-weapon fighting rangers (Core-D&D) are standard-fantasy.

White Raven: Just stuff to support charging or giving some extra actions/help to your allies. Just like the marshal done right. Nothing with jumping, flying or something over the top, except if you thing it's over the top, that a general can spur his army to excellent prowess and do some fearsome charging.

So... the Warblade, if you ignore the italics and the strange artwork in the book, is totally mundane and represents mastery of skill very well. With Iron Heart and White Raven, such a warblade would totally represent a knowledgeable, solemn knight, who can battle fearsome dragons and command his army.
The crusader is pretty Paladin. He gets the Devoted Spirit, which is basically full of healing, charging and alignment-based bashing. The typical holy warrior.
The swordsage... well he is supernatural, I admit this. VERY supernatural, because of the Desert Wind school... but now just say that these are monks. Heck, replace monks with 'em... the flavour is pretty much the same. And if it really bothers you, cross out the firethrowing stuff there, and you're golden - because Setting Sun basically resembles the real world Martial Arts with throws and counters - it's just "monk" without the "suck".

In fact, in my game, I've thrown out the book-flavour. I've redone it that way: No manoeuvre is supernatural, except the ones from Desert Wind and the "Dimension Jumps" and "Flying" from Shadow Hand. And I renamed the schools to fit more typical fantasy:
Desert Wind -> Way of Staff and Sword
Devoted Spririt -> Divine Teachings
Diamond Mind -> Fencing and Swashbuckling
Iron Heart -> Mastery of Swordsplay
Shadow Hand -> Assassin's Lore
Stone Dragon -> Dwarven Stances
Tiger Claw -> School of Two Weapons
White Raven -> Battle Tactics

Better? Yes or No?

And for game balance... the spellcasters in the group still rule, if they want to rule. But since melee characters can do more than stupid bash. In fact, since the melee characters can do stuff better than usual, they are less buff-reliant, easing the load on the spellcasters. Now spellcasters can enjoy spellhurling more, because they don't need to buff the meleeists, and the meleeists can do more interesting stuff than "whackwhack".

I mean, in fantasy novels, I never read that fighters just whack. They dodge, they tumble, they disarm their opponents, they duck for cover, eke out an opening for their friends - they do other things than "full attack". ToB emulates Wheel of Time, R.A. Salvatore, and Midkemia stuff so much better than "full attack" - because in novels they actually do very daring and bold stuff. Just like in ToB.

I begin to feel, that the decision to "blend genres" (as it was called in the introduction) was bad... presenting the stuff with a decidedly less wire-fu inspired stuff, but with the same mechanics would've been far more efficient. Then the "flavour-group" could make their claims, and the cinematic folks... would still have interpreted it as cinematic. Talk about missed opportunity.

Phew, that was long.
(and rhymes with hong.)