OGL Hasbro/WotC has crossed the Trust Thermocline

darjr

I crit!
Assume a maximum of 99,999 people canceled their subscription to D&D Beyond, that isbless than 1% of the user base. Definitely enough to scare management into a change of direction, well and good, but...that still leaves 10 millio+ people using Beyond.

Question is, is it a train heading off of a cliff, or are the managers who apparently think ot will blow over in a fee months right...? We'll probably see when the movie comes out. Right now, the PHB is #147 in all books on Amazon, so this may end up being a bifurcation I'm the fanbase rather than the End Times.
Also that’s after they replaced the button with the form link which took most of two days. I think.
 

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Also that’s after they replaced the button with the form link which took most of two days. I think.

The person you are responding to is conflating two things: unsubscribing and deleting your account. You can unsubscribe right now: I did it with no problems. To delete your account, you need to submit a trouble ticket. That is a more significant step, and the 5 digit number that is attached to matters given how much of a variance is within that.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Also that’s after they replaced the button with the form link which took most of two days. I think.
Fair point, but still a lot of unknown factors hwre. The change.org petitions (which I signed, though I only have a free Beyond account and have every intention of buying future WotC books as the mood strikes me) got five digit sign-ups, but on the lower end of the spectrum, not the higher end. And a lot of the people here saying they were canceling their paid subscriptions were stating it was conditional on future developments, so WotC has a lot of room to walk back here it seems to me.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: for their goals they ought to have revived the d20 STL and sweetened the pot. Let third parties use Beholders or Mindflsyers, let them claim Dungeons & Dragons compatibility on the cover forthright let Ed Greenwood Kickstart the Forgotten Realms. But have community standards enforced for the privilege, and maybe some reasonable royalties. People would sign up for it, from a business point of view.
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
I've said it before, I'll say it again: for their goals they ought to have revived the d20 STL and sweetened the pot. Let third parties use Beholders or Mindflsyers, let them claim Dungeons & Dragons compatibility on the cover forthright let Ed Greenwood Kickstart the Forgotten Realms. But have community standards enforced for the privilege, and maybe some reasonable royalties. People would sign up for it, from a business point of view.
Yes, I agree that this would have been extremely reasonable and would not have met with such a strong pushback.
 

Retreater

Legend
Even on this board, with everyone reading all these posts, with the assumption of some friendliness with 3PP, we can't even get half the responders to a poll to say they'd consider not playing 5e.
Even most people on here don't care. They're hoping they can keep giving Wizards money, praying things don't change. And most of the people will forget within two weeks or whenever the next book comes out.
"Hey, it stinks that Wizards is going to shutter independent design studios and people are going to lose their jobs to the draconian, backstabbing jerks at Wizards, but I can't live without owning literally everything they make."
 

Scribe

Legend
Even on this board, with everyone reading all these posts, with the assumption of some friendliness with 3PP, we can't even get half the responders to a poll to say they'd consider not playing 5e.
Even most people on here don't care. They're hoping they can keep giving Wizards money, praying things don't change. And most of the people will forget within two weeks or whenever the next book comes out.
"Hey, it stinks that Wizards is going to shutter independent design studios and people are going to lose their jobs to the draconian, backstabbing jerks at Wizards, but I can't live without owning literally everything they make."
There's a few here that express that, but I'm hoping it's a dramatic minority.
 

mamba

Hero
Even on this board, with everyone reading all these posts, with the assumption of some friendliness with 3PP, we can't even get half the responders to a poll to say they'd consider not playing 5e. Even most people on here don't care.
I do not have to stop playing 5e to never buy D&D material again, so that does not necessarily mean they do not care. I believe several made that distinction.

Even if 60% did not care, if WotC loses 20% subscribers over this, I doubt they can ignore that
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Even on this board, with everyone reading all these posts, with the assumption of some friendliness with 3PP, we can't even get half the responders to a poll to say they'd consider not playing 5e.
Even most people on here don't care. They're hoping they can keep giving Wizards money, praying things don't change. And most of the people will forget within two weeks or whenever the next book comes out.
"Hey, it stinks that Wizards is going to shutter independent design studios and people are going to lose their jobs to the draconian, backstabbing jerks at Wizards, but I can't live without owning literally everything they make."
Wizards of the Coast isn't our friend...but neither are Kobold Press, Goodman Games, Paizo, Green Ronin, etc. They are all corporate content providers. Paizo was implicat3d in far more problematic practices less than a year ago, and people have moved on...and really, why not...?
 



Retreater

Legend
Wizards of the Coast isn't our friend...but neither are Kobold Press, Goodman Games, Paizo, Green Ronin, etc. They are all corporate content providers. Paizo was implicat3d in far more problematic practices less than a year ago, and people have moved on...and really, why not...?
The smaller businesses do things that are more pro-fan. Like Paizo's support of Archives of Nethys and free access on Foundry. Wizards does nothing, cares nothing. You are a joke to them.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
The smaller businesses do things that are more pro-fan. Like Paizo's support of Archives of Nethys and free access on Foundry. Wizards does nothing, cares nothing. You are a joke to them.
Sure, obviously, they are a large corporation and I am a customer...that's how the relationship works. They don't care about me, I don't care about them. If they produce something that I want, then I buy it. If they don't, then I don't buy it. Turns out that since 2014, the only things they put out that I didn't want were Acquisitions Incorporated and Rick & Morty, but they could still put out something I don't want (has tonhappen eventually). Other companies put out stuff that I want, so I buy it (Call of Cthulu, Dungeon Crawl Classics, several Midgard books, just got tye PbtA Avatar in the mail) When they don't, I don't. None of this constitutes a friendship or relationship, it's all transactional.
 
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Azzy

KMF DM
Even on this board, with everyone reading all these posts, with the assumption of some friendliness with 3PP, we can't even get half the responders to a poll to say they'd consider not playing 5e.
Even most people on here don't care. They're hoping they can keep giving Wizards money, praying things don't change. And most of the people will forget within two weeks or whenever the next book comes out.
That's a tortured conclusion. People can use the products they have to continue playing 5e without giving Wizards another red cent. Nobody needs to engage in product churn, and those that wish to can buy 3PP. That's what I'll be doing.
 

Retreater

Legend
None of this constitutes a friendship or relationship, it's all transactional.
Yeah. I get that when it's a billion dollar company. But look at the individual creators. My friend Levi out there writing zines every few months. Sacrosanct and Steampunkette on these boards who have had Kickstarters going on. Morrus and the ENP crew.
Certainly, I would hope, people on these boards would view supporting a small creator differently.
I'll grant you, the OGL isn't out yet. If it comes out and it's as lousy as we saw, you're not just making a transaction. People who support WotC are spitting in the faces of independent content creators.
WotC may not be your friends, but the people they are posed to mess over are.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
Yeah. I get that when it's a billion dollar company. But look at the individual creators. My friend Levi out there writing zines every few months. Sacrosanct and Steampunkette on these boards who have had Kickstarters going on. Morrus and the ENP crew.
Certainly, I would hope, people on these boards would view supporting a small creator differently.
I'll grant you, the OGL isn't out yet. If it comes out and it's as lousy as we saw, you're not just making a transaction. People who support WotC are spitting in the faces of independent content creators.
WotC may not be your friends, but the people they are posed to mess over are.
...

All due respect to them, but no, they aren't my "friends" in that way, anymore than Jeremy Crawford is because we have interacted on Twitter. Certainly not in any sort of "I owe them money for a product I don't want" way. I already have two fantasy RPGs, I don't need a third or fourth...maybe if they were covering a different genre.

And no, it is not "spitting in the faces" of anyone to buy a game just because of licensing shennanigans that are aeperate. The cooperation is remote and material, neither proximate nor formal.
 
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Retreater

Legend
All due respect to them, but no, they aren't my "friends" in that way, anymore than Jeremy Crawford is because we have interacted on Twitter.
Yeah. I guess if you can't see the difference in someone making a product for love of the game, sometimes at great financial risk, from a mega billion dollar corporation that wants to sell you microtransactions of barely usable content to appease stockholders, all the while disrespecting you and your hobby behind closed doors, then I guess enjoy your Big Mac D&D.
 


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