Haste, should it age you?

[mkletch]

Yes, but see, the solar radiation in mkletch's world, in addition to changing the colour of the sky, has a subtle but significant effect on the meanings of words such as "fun" and "game".

Wow, that was mature. Time for Hong to take a nap, I think.

-Fletch!

 

[Piratecat]

Actually, I think it's time for everyone to stop insulting everyone else, or this thread gets closed.

 

[Numion]

FWIW, in my high-level game everyone has haste boots or can cast the spell. And I don't think it would matter if the spell was pumbed up to sixth level. It's just too useful a spell not to use. High-level sorcerers don't tend to run out of spells anyway, so they need haste to get rid of their spell slots...

 

[drowdude]

Personally I think Haste is fine as is.

Yes, it is one of the better spells in the game, and it has seen a good bit of use in most of the campaigns I run/play in... but use by both the heroes *and* the villians. Thats the balancing factor...

As far as Armor of Speed goes.... yeah, that's outright broken, either it should be something like a +7 modifier, or it should be limited in the same fashion as Boots of Speed (10 rnds/day).

 

[Stalker0]

Really? That's over 8,000 people you're speaking for.

As much as it will be universally reviled as beating a dead horse, I'll be HAPPY to post a poll in Rules. I'll suggest the wording here, in case there are any objections ahead of time:

Poll: Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

a.) Yes, something should be done to curb it's power.

b.) No, we use it as is, and it's just fine.

An excellent idea, although it may start this thread up all over again.

 

[Mulkhoran]

An excellent idea, although it may start this thread up all over again.

Consider it done. I will bear the slings and arrows of ENWorld if I can mention your name at the contentious party.

 

[mkletch]

As far as Armor of Speed goes.... yeah, that's outright broken, either it should be something like a +7 modifier, or it should be limited in the same fashion as Boots of Speed (10 rnds/day).

OK, let me back up a step. A cloak of major displacement (or major cloak of displacement) should, by the rules, cost 30kgp. It does cost 50kgp. Haste is the same level spell, and both are normally one round/level as a spell. So both items should be the same cost, or Haste (the spell) is broken, or has too low a level. For a 50kgp item, the cost to add that ability to armor would be calculated by dividing by 5000gp, then taking the square root, and proabably round up (that is what we reverse engineered). So the armor modifier should be sqrt(10), or 4 when rounded up. Without the surcharge (i.e. the bump in cost derived from Displacement), it would be sqrt(6), or 3 when rounded up (as it is in DotF).

I'm not saying that speed armor as in the book is not without issues. But if arcane spellcasters with major displacement cloaks in my party want to be casting Haste as a 3rd level spell, then I want my haste armor as a +3 or +4 bonus. That simple.

As for "it should be a +7 armor bonus", that would imply that the caster level is increased way up there for no reason, or that the spell level is 8th:

7 squared = 49.
49*5000gp = 245000gp
245000/2000 (continuous effect)=122.5
minimum caster level * spell level does not exceed 122.5
minimum caster level = (level *2)-1
2 * level squared - level cannot exceed 122.5.
level of spell that would generate a +7 armor bonus by default: 8th

So, if your wizard or sorcerer wants to cast haste as an 8th level spell, then I'll be more than happy to take speed armor (as in DotF) as a +7 effective armor bonus. If you think a +8 modifier would be more appropriate, that would be a 9th level spell.

It is just unfair to provide haste as a cheap 3rd level slot for arcane spellcasters, but prohibit others from gaining this ability except as a disposable or highly restricted magic item. Heck, boots of speed are worthless in most campaigns in which I play, because it takes a reound to activate, and most combats are running, moving affairs with reinforcements and chases, lasting well over 10 rounds.

-Fletch!

 

[da chicken]

[Grumble... grumble... stupid browser cache...]

 

[da chicken]

Haste should definately not age you. The reason is even simpler than Human vs Elven lifespan.

A spell which causes aging is horribly bad for PCs and stupid good for NPCs. NPCs are lucky to survive even a single combat. Who cares if they age a year if they're going to be dead in a minute anyway? That means there is never any reason for an NPC not to use haste because it suddenly has no drawback for them (they don't know it, but the DM controlling them does).

Even worse, NPCs in an large organization might just start hasting the PCs to kill them off permanently.

If you want to nerf haste, try the d20 Modern version: double movement, +2 dodge to AC, 1 extra attack at highest BAB. That's it. Personally, I think it is too much to remove the 2-spells per round benefit.

Perhaps they should create a second spell which allows you to cast two spells in one round as a full round action. Or have them cast as a 1 full round spell, so that the second spell would go off right before the beginning of the next round.

As far as DotF, they suggested +7 because the extra partial action is worth ~+3, and the +4 AC that stack with anything is worth at least +4. Note there is a suggested change in the lastest release of the Main FAQ that says it should be +2 and work exactly like boots of speed.

 

[mkletch]

Haste should definately not age you. The reason is even simpler than Human vs Elven lifespan.

A spell which causes aging is horribly bad for PCs and stupid good for NPCs. NPCs are lucky to survive even a single combat. Who cares if they age a year if they're going to be dead in a minute anyway? That means there is never any reason for an NPC not to use haste because it suddenly has no drawback for them (they don't know it, but the DM controlling them does).

PCs have all of the advantages, anyway. More and better equipment, typically they have strategic initiaitve, often more knowledge of the opposition than the opposition has regarding a small band of random mercenaries. So, let the NPCs use haste with impunity (assuming they feel their lives are in danger).

Even worse, NPCs in an large organization might just start hasting the PCs to kill them off permanently.

If you don't want to be hasted, it does allow a Fort save, even as is.

As far as DotF, they suggested +7 because the extra partial action is worth ~+3, and the +4 AC that stack with anything is worth at least +4. Note there is a suggested change in the lastest release of the Main FAQ that says it should be +2 and work exactly like boots of speed.

Being as there is not (to my knowledge) any spell that simply grants a partial action in any WotC source, there is no basis for assigning the "extra partial action = +3 bonus" value. Just because somebody pulled that figure out of their rear does not give it the value of Truth. The +4 haste bonus to AC, per the spell, is lost if you lose your Dex or dodge bonus to AC (e.g. flat-footed, bluffed, etc.). This makes it not quite as good as a +4 enhancement bonus.

My whole point is that the item values are dependent upon the levels of the original spell. If you want to raise the bonus, you have to increase the level of the spell. Or you have to throw out the whole system despite the fact that it works nearly all the time. Or you have to admit that you are being random and inconsistent. Not that it really matters which one you pick. It is your game. But you have to declare your intent if you want to discuss this any further. Where do you stand on the system? Do one or two spells invalidate it, or are those spells in some way 'wrong'?

-Fletch!