Hatin' the RPGA? (Forked Thread: The real flaw of 3E/3.5E/OGL)

[Beginning of the End]

Is it me or do some people have a strong dislike for the RPGA and organized play in general? Why all the hate? Care to explain?

I don't have any particular hate for them. I've played in a few RPGA sessions over the years and have found the artificial constraints imposed by organized play to result in sessions that are, at best, watered down and mediocre.

But there are lots of reasons to like the RPGA. There are things you can do in the RPGA (like take a single character to many diffferent gaming tables) that are much more difficult to do outside of the RPGA. And the RPGA also provides opportunities for people to play who might not have other opportunities. That's all to the good.

What I do actively dislike is the way in which the RPGA and organized play has become the tail wagging the dog. Re-designing the game with an explicit goal of making it more conducive to a style of play which is inherently crippled is, IMO, idiotic.

If the RPGA actually constituted the primary market for D&D players, then that would be fine. But it isn't. It's a side-show compared to the wider hobby. And catering your products to a minority is a really stupid way to do business.

 

[Monkey Boy]

RPGA - worst experience of my life

Here's a short story on why I hate the RPGA.

Me and 2 buddies signed up for an RPGA game at Conquest (the local game convention). As we weren't enough to form a group on our own our numbers were boosted by 3 other players. Their efforts at roleplaying were abysmal, their characters the worst examples of wish fulfillment power trips. A cross dressing Psion nun and some kind of sexy midget succubi. They commited the crime of boring us to tears with long winded 'stories about their character' which seemed to wind up ending in how they could crush our characters with a single thought. The idea of co-operating seemed novel to them. They pulled the parties strings because their characters were more powerful. I pointed out to them that D&D was a co-operative game but that didn't get much traction. It was an ominous start but heh I love D&D so I stuck it out. About 2 hours in we nearly came to blows. The Psion blew everyone up in a TPK which was merciful in hindsight. When the DM said 'your characters were only knocked unconcious by the warehouse levelling blast and you can keep playing' me and my buddies walked out.

I've played 3 times with the RPGA and met all manner of social outcast and misfit. I've gamed with 9 year old children who want to fight every npc they come across, crossdressers, an aspbergers bloke with a chronic stutter. To be honest the 3 I just mentioned were fun to game with though I hate add some of the fun was had at their expense. Some lawncrappers, for lack of a better term, are worse than others. The nun Psion story above was the last time for me. My buddies wont play D&D again no matter how much I explain that the RPGA experience really isn't what D&D is about.

 

[Krensky]

I've played 3 times with the RPGA and met all manner of social outcast and misfit. I've gamed with 9 year old children who want to fight every npc they come across, crossdressers, an aspbergers bloke with a chronic stutter. To be honest the 3 I just mentioned were fun to game with though I hate add some of the fun was had at their expense. Some lawncrappers, for lack of a better term, are worse than others. The nun Psion story above was the last time for me. My buddies wont play D&D again no matter how much I explain that the RPGA experience really isn't what D&D is about.

I'm not entirely sure those three examples are fair for you to single out. The 9 year old can learn better play, and as for the transvestite and guy with Aspberger... seriously dude. You may not want to play with them, but that doesn't mean they're dysfunctional or an example of something wrong with the RPGA. Arguably they are examples of something I admit the RPGA (as an organization) does well which is accept people who have difficulties elsewhere. I know there are dysfunctional people in the RPGA (they're one part of why I'm not a memeber), but I don't think they're fair examples.

Unless, of course, they were dysfunctional in addition to the listed characteristics, in which case why mention the cross-dressing or Aspberger syndrome instead of those issues?

 

[Piratecat]

What Krensky said.

In addition, it seems unfortunate to rate the value of a giant, linked organization that lets you play the same character at any con in pretty much the world... all on the basis of a three bad games at one local convention. That's a lousy sample size. I'd be more willing to conclude that you just had a few unfortunate local players.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I don't understand how the organization subjugates the DM, according to you. The Living Forgotten Realms Campaign gives great latitude to the DM to alter the adventure scenario to fit the needs of the table that he is DMing for.

"Great lattitude" still means that at some point my campaign must conform to RPGA limitations and not my own. At my home games I have no reason to even begin to move in that direction. I don't run or play games at cons (since I've only ever even attended two over the last 30 years), don't have a particular problem creating adventures, don't care to be a playtester, don't need to find players or a game despite the fact that I have been absent both for a while.

I think a lot of people are making assumptions that are not true of the organization as it stands currently. Then they are propagating these "myths" as if they were true.

As I said, I can see the advantages for others - just not for me. I don't HATE the RPGA because the RPGA has no influence whatsoever upon D&D for me. I just don't find the RPGA personally necessary.

The only adventure scenarios that might be "micro-managed", in a sense, might be the D&D Championship, in which what is trying to be accomplished is a competitive scenario. In that case you would want all DMs to stick to script, so to say. That way you have a more level playing field for all teams involved.

I guess I failed to mention that I abhor the idea of D&D as a competitive excercise.

 

[amysrevenge]

What Krensky said.

In addition, it seems unfortunate to rate the value of a giant, linked organization that lets you play the same character at any con in pretty much the world... all on the basis of a three bad games at one local convention. That's a lousy sample size. I'd be more willing to conclude that you just had a few unfortunate local players.

Frankly, the experience says exactly as much about the quality of the people in that neighbourhood, town, or country as it does about the people in the RPGA (ie. nothing substantive). lol

 

[Stormtower]

Re-designing the game with an explicit goal of making it more conducive to a style of play which is inherently crippled is, IMO, idiotic.

All right, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I object (as would most of the players who've sat at my tables when I ran RPGA adventures) to the idea that the RPGA playstyle is "inherently crippled."

That's pretty strong fighting words against many of us RPGA DMs who prepare and run mods that leave our players happy and smiling, wanting to come back for more. I'm sure you can do better, though, since we're playing an "inherently crippled" style. Remember, the RPGA's brand of fun is wrongbadfun.

For the record, I too have issues with the combat-heavy emphasis of 4E and the occasional wonkiness of skill challenges. Yet I contend that a skilled DM can overcome those problems and still provide a game that is both challenging and entertaining.

Care to offer any solutions to the specific problems you perceive in the RPGA's "inherently crippled" playstyle, or are you just going to criticize to hear yourself speak?

 

[Set]

My old-school D&D playing, con-going friends had a virulent loathing of the RPGA, based on experiences many, many years past.

A few years back, I signed up for some Xendrik Expeditions games, and signed one of them up as well, not thinking about how the 'RPGA-thing' was going to go over, and he balked, but went ahead and grimaced and signed the membership card, and we had a great time for the five slots we'd signed up for. We also played a ton of the 'Dungeon Delve' games, also run by RPGA DMs, and they were a fun twist as well, and we got to take home some shiny swag.

My friend admitted that the RPGA we experienced there was *nothing* like the war-gamery hyper-competitive rules-lawyers that he remembers with such distaste from a previous decade. I'm sure that a bad experience could have soured me to the concept as well, but Xendrik Expeditions was run, IMO, brilliantly, unlike Living Greyhawk, where I would have been obliged to only play specific sorts of characters in a specific region, based on where I lived, or Living Raven's Bluff, which, from the sounds of it, was a bit of a disaster...

 

[darjr]

"Great lattitude" still means that at some point my campaign must conform to RPGA limitations and not my own. At my home games I have no reason to even begin to move in that direction. I don't run or play games at cons (since I've only ever even attended two over the last 30 years), don't have a particular problem creating adventures, don't care to be a playtester, don't need to find players or a game despite the fact that I have been absent both for a while.

As I said, I can see the advantages for others - just not for me. I don't HATE the RPGA because the RPGA has no influence whatsoever upon D&D for me. I just don't find the RPGA personally necessary.
I guess I failed to mention that I abhor the idea of D&D as a competitive excercise.

Actually if you play RPGA games as 'home' games you can play them any darn way you like. The only stipulation being that the characters involved can't be brought to other events. Thats it. The adventures can be run in your campaign in ANY way. Tear them apart and make them your own. If and only if you decide to report the events, and you signed up for the rewards program, then you'll get credit as a DM for the rewards program.

No constraints on your campaign. Zero.

 

[Greg K]

Actually if you play RPGA games as 'home' games you can play them any darn way you like. The only stipulation being that the characters involved can't be brought to other events. Thats it. The adventures can be run in your campaign in ANY way. Tear them apart and make them your own. If and only if you decide to report the events, and you signed up for the rewards program, then you'll get credit as a DM for the rewards program.

No constraints on your campaign. Zero.

In which case a non-sanctioned house play really isn't organized play, is it? You have the same thing that the OP in the original thread was complaining about- people running games using whatever WOTC, 3pp products, or house rules they choose to see fit which makes it difficult for people to know how the game is played at a particular table. Only in this case, the group the table in question just happen to belong to the RPGA and get bennies for a reported game.