have 3rd parties gotten the srd yet?

[IanArgent]

My completely off-the-wall guess; the SRD will get hashed out internally at WotC when the ruleset "goes gold" and not before - IE, when it's sent to the printers. WotC should have a pretty good idea of what they want to do with the SRD by that point, so they could just polish it and go.

Unless they're running a separate team for the SRD, though, they really can't do much with it until the rules are set.

No connections to WotC - only "connections" in the industry is my wife, who is a freelance editor, and a friend who runs a small publisher.

 

[Andre]

Oh, I agree. Healthy 3rd party publishers = more gamers = more business for WotC. I hope and expect that they'll get them the SRD before then... but I won't be surprised if it happens later than folks prefer. The most important deadlines for WotC right now are their internal ones.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this statement. Exactly how do 3rd party publishers = more business for WOTC? For this to be true, they have to either bring in new blood, or encourage existing players to not only continue playing the game, but purchase new products. I don't see such a causal effect.

I have personally heard of not one case where someone started playing D&D due to a 3rd party product based on the OGL. As for existing D&D gamers, it appears that most have never purchased a single 3rd party product, based on the relatively small print runs vs. the large number of core books sold. For those few gamers who have purchased 3rd party material, do we really believe those folks would have stopped playing if there were fewer (or no) 3rd party publishers?

Sorry for the sidetrack, but this is an assumption that I've never seen properly supported by data or logic. While I believe strongly that good 3rd party publishers are a boon for the minority of gamers who pay attention to them, I don't see them helping WOTC one way or the other. I still want a 4E SRD, but I certainly understand if WOTC puts a very low priority on getting it out the door.

 

[Glyfair]

I have personally heard of not one case where someone started playing D&D due to a 3rd party product based on the OGL.

I have, but they aren't particularly common. What I have heard are cases where experienced gamers play D&D rather than another RPG because of the 3rd party support for D&D.

For example, I believe that when Paizo moves to 4E that there will be a group of players that at least considers moving to 4E so that they can uses Paizo's products (while a minority will choose to buy the products and adapt them to 3.5 or something else).

 

[AncientSpirits]

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind this statement. Exactly how do 3rd party publishers = more business for WOTC? For this to be true, they have to either bring in new blood, or encourage existing players to not only continue playing the game, but purchase new products. I don't see such a causal effect.

SNIP

Sorry for the sidetrack, but this is an assumption that I've never seen properly supported by data or logic. While I believe strongly that good 3rd party publishers are a boon for the minority of gamers who pay attention to them, I don't see them helping WOTC one way or the other. I still want a 4E SRD, but I certainly understand if WOTC puts a very low priority on getting it out the door.

Here is the reasoning...
1) There are two kinds of D&D RPGers: A small minority who buy a lot of books, including 3rd party books (usually DMs), and a huge majority who buy only 1 or 2 books, rarely 3rd party (usually players who buy the Players Handbook, as evidence by Amazon sales).
2) Players tend to play the game system run by their DM.
3) DMs may hesitate to switch to 4E if there are no support materials for their campaign settings.
4) 4E as released by WotC lacks major elements common to many DMs' game worlds (druids, barbarians, artificers, necromancy, illusion, psionics, etc), not to mention adventure supplements. Also keep in mind that WotC has emphasized that 3E materials will be unusable (stat-wise, if not flavor-wise) in 4E, so there will be a need.
5) If there are 3rd-party folks ready to fill these holes, DMs such as me may be more likely to jump into 4E right away; otherwise, DMs may be more likely to wait months or even a year or more.
6) If DMs don't buy into 4E, per #2 above, tons of players won't either.

Naturally, I cannot speak for more than a couple DMs (me and those I hang with.) But this reasoning is both logical in my opinion and based in a reasonable amount of fact, as much as we folk of EN world have access to anyway).

I hope this helps clear up things.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Here is the reasoning...
1) There are two kinds of D&D RPGers: A small minority who buy a lot of books, including 3rd party books (usually DMs), and a huge majority who buy only 1 or 2 books, rarely 3rd party (usually players who buy the Players Handbook, as evidence by Amazon sales).
2) Players tend to play the game system run by their DM.
3) DMs may hesitate to switch to 4E if there are no support materials for their campaign settings.
4) 4E as released by WotC lacks major elements common to many DMs' game worlds (druids, barbarians, artificers, necromancy, illusion, psionics, etc), not to mention adventure supplements. Also keep in mind that WotC has emphasized that 3E materials will be unusable (stat-wise, if not flavor-wise) in 4E, so there will be a need.
5) If there are 3rd-party folks ready to fill these holes, DMs such as me may be more likely to jump into 4E right away; otherwise, DMs may be more likely to wait months or even a year or more.
6) If DMs don't buy into 4E, per #2 above, tons of players won't either.

Naturally, I cannot speak for more than a couple DMs (me and those I hang with.) But this reasoning is both logical in my opinion and based in a reasonable amount of fact, as much as we folk of EN world have access to anyway).

I hope this helps clear up things.

That's a very good point. For a while, I talked with my group about running the Serenity RPG. Then one day I bought it. I told one of my players and that day, he bought a copy himself. After giving it a thorough read, I decided I didn't care for the system and shelved it. But if I hadn't metioned that I got a copy, MWP wouldn't have had his sale.

 

[Andre]

That's a very good point. For a while, I talked with my group about running the Serenity RPG. Then one day I bought it. I told one of my players and that day, he bought a copy himself. After giving it a thorough read, I decided I didn't care for the system and shelved it. But if I hadn't metioned that I got a copy, MWP wouldn't have had his sale.

Almost the exact same thing happened with me - a friend started playing Serenity with another group and it sounded so good, I picked up the book. Despite some critical reviews, I like what I saw of the system.

Here is the reasoning...
1) There are two kinds of D&D RPGers: A small minority who buy a lot of books, including 3rd party books (usually DMs), and a huge majority who buy only 1 or 2 books, rarely 3rd party (usually players who buy the Players Handbook, as evidence by Amazon sales).
2) Players tend to play the game system run by their DM.
3) DMs may hesitate to switch to 4E if there are no support materials for their campaign settings.
4) 4E as released by WotC lacks major elements common to many DMs' game worlds (druids, barbarians, artificers, necromancy, illusion, psionics, etc), not to mention adventure supplements. Also keep in mind that WotC has emphasized that 3E materials will be unusable (stat-wise, if not flavor-wise) in 4E, so there will be a need.
5) If there are 3rd-party folks ready to fill these holes, DMs such as me may be more likely to jump into 4E right away; otherwise, DMs may be more likely to wait months or even a year or more.
6) If DMs don't buy into 4E, per #2 above, tons of players won't either.

Naturally, I cannot speak for more than a couple DMs (me and those I hang with.) But this reasoning is both logical in my opinion and based in a reasonable amount of fact, as much as we folk of EN world have access to anyway).

I hope this helps clear up things.

I can see the argument, and for a few folks it's a real possibility. The question is: how many? I'm guessing that the numbers wouldn't even be noticeable to WOTC. First, based on the relatively low print runs for WOTC supplements vs the core books, it appears that the vast majority of D&D groups use just the core books, with - maybe - one or two other WOTC books. And far fewer groups use any non-WOTC material at all.

I can see, however, that many 3E GM's will hesitate to move to 4E due to a variety of issues - lack of 4E support (as you mentioned), active 3E campaigns that are meeting their needs, or expectations that there will be a version 4.5, even if it's not called that. WOTC will not want to give such folks any reason to hold off, so they will want to discourage 3rd party publishers from continuing to support the old edition, even if such support has minimal impact on sales.

And altogether, how many sales are really at issue here? I would guess that WOTC is planning to sell hundreds of thousands of core books - if a few hundred GM's wait to switch because the SRD is released late, will WOTC even notice? I'm pleased that WOTC is producing a 4E SRD - I just don't buy the argument that it will impact their sales to any measurable degree.

 

[AncientSpirits]

I can see the argument, and for a few folks it's a real possibility. The question is: how many?

Yeah, you raise a good point: who knows?! How many DM's collect books, and how many will hesitate?! Although we don't know, I suspect it will be more than a few hundred DMs. If the poll numbers are any hint (yeah right!), perhaps as many as 30% of DMs will hesitate. Each of those could take away 4-6 players with them, resulting in a big wave of delayed (or even no) purchases of 4E. Of course, the poll is likely not representative.

I wonder if people are a little more comfortable ordering 3rd-party stuff in these recent days. Many D&D players were introduced to Paizo via Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Before Paizo, I was WotC only. When Dragon ended, I took Pathfinder. At a con I picked up Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might and liked it too. Now I've picked up some on-sale Green Ronin books (I barely knew who they were before) and just subscribed to Kobold Quarterly. Anyway, point is: I'm a different kind of customer than I was six months ago, thanks to the whole shakeup with Dragon. I become an RPG customer rather than a WotC customer. I wonder how many other DMs have had this recent experience? (Poll anyone?)

Personally, I look forward to getting my hands on 4E. But I really hesitate to switch right away. If there are 3rd-party products early on, then yes, I will likely buy the books (assuming I like them) and encourage my players to do so. Otherwise... maybe 2009 when Eberron comes out!

 

[hazel monday]

I wonder if people are a little more comfortable ordering 3rd-party stuff in these recent days. Many D&D players were introduced to Paizo via Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Before Paizo, I was WotC only. When Dragon ended, I took Pathfinder. At a con I picked up Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might and liked it too. Now I've picked up some on-sale Green Ronin books (I barely knew who they were before) and just subscribed to Kobold Quarterly.
!

This is exactly what's happened to me in the last 6 months.

 

[DaveMage]

IMO, if you're looking for third party stuff, you really can't go wrong with any of these for 3.5 products:

Paizo
Necromancer Games
Goodman Games
Green Ronin
Malhavoc
Margaret Weis Productions (Dragonlance & Castlemourn)

A few other good companies are Fantasy Flight Games, Kenzer and AEG, but the majority of their D&D effort was with v3.0 products.

 

[Andre]

How many DM's collect books, and how many will hesitate?! Although we don't know, I suspect it will be more than a few hundred DMs. If the poll numbers are any hint (yeah right!), perhaps as many as 30% of DMs will hesitate. Each of those could take away 4-6 players with them, resulting in a big wave of delayed (or even no) purchases of 4E. Of course, the poll is likely not representative.

Yep, that's the $64,000 question. My guesses are based on what little we know from 3E (and an innate pessimism), but one thing we can be certain of is that the 4E roll-out will be different. The market is very different from 8 years ago: the demand for a new edition is not as great; the hobby in general seems to be healthier with more and better systems available; and there is an established supply of non-WOTC D&D products. However 4E shakes out, roleplaying is in a much better place than it was years ago.

Should be interesting.