Have minions been reverse-engineered?

[drquestion]

I know an individual critter's numbers may be tweaked from the guidelines but anyway I look at the Human Rabble or Goblin Cutter, for instance, I can't find a consistent pattern to explain the stats, especially the defenses. Sometimes it looks like the ability mod applies, other times not.

Would someone who sees this be willing to deconstruct the Human Rabble and/or Goblin Cutter, explaining how it fits with some model? I know fitting doesn't have to be perfect, but I'd appreciate just seeing where you think it's following some rules and where it's deviating.

I don't have my books with me, so unfortunately I can't help with the specific minions. If no one's answered yet when I get home this evening, I'll take a look and see what I can do.

I haven't tried to reverse-engineer minions based on the numbers in the DMG. However, I did do a quick comparison of some minions with non-minions of the same type (angels, goblins, kobolds, zombies for example). As I recall, for the most part, minions' attack and defense values were more-or-less in line with what a regular monster of their level would have.

Also, remember that the guidelines in the DMG are ballpark figures for creating your own monsters, not necessarily guidelines for reverse-engineering the ones in the MM.

 

[Scribble]

So, anyone got a reverse engineered dragon minion? AKA a hatchling?

Well could be messed with a bunch I bet but I whipped this up in a few minutes...

Hatchling Red Dragon Level 4 minion
Medium natural magical beast (dragon) XP 44
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +9; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
Resist 10 fire
AC 20; Fortitude 20, Reflex 17, Will 18
Speed 6, fly 8 (hover), overland flight 12
M Bite (standard; at-will) * Fire
+11 vs. AC; 5 fire damage
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Bluff +8, Insight +9, Intimidate +8
Str 21 (+7) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 14 (+4)
Con 18 (+6) Int 11 (+2) Cha 12 (+3)


Put the fire resistance back in, because other minions have resistance... Dropped it to 10 though...

 

[DM_Blake]

Well could be messed with a bunch I bet but I whipped this up in a few minutes...

Hatchling Red Dragon Level 4 minion
Medium natural magical beast (dragon) XP 44
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +9; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 20; Fortitude 20, Reflex 17, Will 18
Speed 6, fly 8 (hover), overland flight 12
M Bite (standard; at-will) * Fire
+11 vs. AC; 5 fire damage
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Bluff +8, Insight +9, Intimidate +8
Str 21 (+7) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 14 (+4)
Con 18 (+6) Int 11 (+2) Cha 12 (+3)

Thought about keeping the fire resistance at first because it seemed dragony, but that runs counter to the whole minions die in 1 hit thing.

So I just made the damage they do fire damage.

At work, no books with me, and I haven't really read much about monsters or their abilities yet, so this is just making assumptions that sound reasonable to me (a dangerous thing for me to do with 4e):

Just 5 fire damage on the bite? No teeth yet? And doesn't STR factor into damage, so it should be at least 8 damage? So I would think 8 damage from the bite, plus additional fire damage if that seems warranted.

Also, keep the fire resistance. Minions are supposed to die in one hit, but it has to be something that can damage them. A minion fire elemental can't be killed in one hit by fire, either.

 

[Nifft]

Hey, on a side topic, what should be the HP for a Legion Devil (as a non-Minion)?

I'd like to throw some Soldier versions at my lower-level PCs, so they can feel like Big Damn Heroes when they are mowing the bastards down at 10th level.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Zurai]

Just use the HP for a soldier of the appropriate level: 8+Con+(Level*8).

 

[F5]

I'm a little disappointed that the process for making a minion version of a monster isn't spelled out clearer. Is the intent that we're only going to use the minions they've already spelled out in the MM?

Probably fits with the overall vision of 4e, but I don't really like it. I suspect we'll be seeing a DDI/Dragon article about how to do this at some point in the future...

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

You know, I think there is an error in the Human Rabble statblock (though not in errata so far). Either it should be a Level 1 Minion or its ability mods need to be 1 higher each to reflect being level 2. It also seems that maybe minions, instead of having base + level to defenses, maybe have 10 + 1/2 level. Even that's not fully consistent, but maybe that and then ratcheted up/down depending on how tasty the powers are, if any. Argh, the lack of clarity and abundance of errors is really frustrating here.

 

[Scribble]

At work, no books with me, and I haven't really read much about monsters or their abilities yet, so this is just making assumptions that sound reasonable to me (a dangerous thing for me to do with 4e):

Just 5 fire damage on the bite? No teeth yet? And doesn't STR factor into damage, so it should be at least 8 damage? So I would think 8 damage from the bite, plus additional fire damage if that seems warranted.

Also, keep the fire resistance. Minions are supposed to die in one hit, but it has to be something that can damage them. A minion fire elemental can't be killed in one hit by fire, either.

Level 11 angel of valor minion only does 6 points of fire.

Looks like it's whatever the low damage would be, and assumed to have roleld a 1... So a level 4 monster's low damage would be 1d6 + 4 so 5 for a minion... 1st level minion would be 1d6 + 3 so 4 for a minion

Or maybe it's just the average of the numbers? Round down?

Good point about the resist fire thing though... So that goes back in.

 

[Mengu]

You know, I think there is an error in the Human Rabble statblock (though not in errata so far). Either it should be a Level 1 Minion or its ability mods need to be 1 higher each to reflect being level 2. It also seems that maybe minions, instead of having base + level to defenses, maybe have 10 + 1/2 level. Even that's not fully consistent, but maybe that and then ratcheted up/down depending on how tasty the powers are, if any. Argh, the lack of clarity and abundance of errors is really frustrating here.

It's probably because you can base a minion on one of the other roles, and end up with slightly different results each time. They probably didn't want to create more types for skirmisher minions, soldier minions, and brute minions. They lumped them all together for simplicity. I think as long as you start with a base creature of appropriate level when you are minionizing, it should be appropriate.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm a little disappointed that the process for making a minion version of a monster isn't spelled out clearer. Is the intent that we're only going to use the minions they've already spelled out in the MM?

I wouldn't try to "minionize" non-minion monsters. Too many special abilities to take into account, specials which would take up too much time on minions. If I wanted to make a minion monster, I'd just use the DMG guidelines for monster design and stat it up from scratch.