D&D 5E Have Scorching Ray and eldritch blast been nerfed somehow with charisma?

[flametitan]

Also, it is worth noting that each blast does not hit at the same time. I think that was clarified in a tweet.

If I recall, it was a subset in a longer conversation as to how Magic Missile and Scorching Ray were affected by the errata.

Effectively, spells like MM says it hits all targets simultaneously, and thus all bolts got the ability mod if you had Empowered Evocation (which functions the same as Elemental Affinity as much as necessary for the conversation). Scorching ray doesn't say that, and therefore was sequential, thus only getting the mod once.

Eldritch Blast, by this reasoning, was a sequential spell. However, the wording for Agonizing Blast is that it applies when you hit, and Eldritch blast is capable of hitting multiple times, thus meaning that Agonizing blast is applied multiple times.

Something that seems to be overlooked a lot with hex is it also forces disadvantage on all checks and saves for one stat of your choice. So if you have other casters or characters who like status effects in the party, you can make their abilities more likely to hit.

Not saves. Only ability checks. So it helps if you have a grappler in the party, or stop your quarry from hiding but otherwise it's a pretty situational secondary ability.

 

[flametitan]

With magic missile, the reason that sage advice said each missile was affected was that the damage die was only rolled once and is used for each missile. Not that we do that, we've always rolled the dice for each missile so at our table the damage would only apply to a single missile.

Right. I was explaining why magic missile is RAW, "roll once, apply mod to all," was because the spell says all bolts hit simultaneously. I figured using MM as part of the explanation would help clarify how this stuff worked and why agonizing blast was different from Elemental Affinity and Empowered Evocation.

I might've overlooked details as to what it meant to hit simultaneously, which you included.

 

[the_redbeard]

Not saves. Only ability checks. So it helps if you have a grappler in the party, or stop your quarry from hiding but otherwise it's a pretty situational secondary ability.[/FONT]

Hex is situational, but I keep finding more situations. Hiding? Disadvantage their wisdom checks. I've used it in social situations, giving disadvantage to the prosecution's lawyer's charisma checks on his closing arguments, hexing the agitator's charisma in a derro street demonstration, and so on.

It has really nice range (90') and it isn't an attack (at least as ruled by our DM) or at least not an obvious one. Yes, concentration for it is a pain, but because you can move it after your target is dead it is a pretty efficient use of your precious spell slots especially as it can still be going after your short rest, and it has utility beyond combat limited only by your creativity.

So I'd still say it is a mandatory spell for a warlock.

 

[Helldritch]

You're not casting the same spell multiple times. And this rule doesn't apply to damage anyway. When you cast the same damage spell multiple times, you get the damage multiple times. But this is irrelevant, because, again, you're not doing that. There's nothing in this rule that brings it to bear on eldritch blast or scorching ray.

Spiritual weapon is only one casting of a spell, but it can hit a bunch of times, and very definitely adds your Wisdom modifier to damage each time. One casting of a spell doesn't always have to imply simultaneity.

Heck, since it's a cantrip, you can even say that high-level warlocks are actually casting it two to four times a round. Like I said above, when casting the same damage spell multiple times, the damage does stack.

Or, y'know, you can just say that they are simultaneous, but that you add your Charisma modifier to each blast anyway because that's what the rules say and there's no particular reason why it's implausible that they work that way.

Spiritual hammering does it's damage over many subsequent rounds. Your example don't stand the comparaison.

Saying that the eldritch blast is the equivalent of multiple casting is again, not a good way to deal with it. The warlock, unlike the sorcerer has no inclass ways to do multiple casting in a round. And the bolts are created simulteanously with only one casting.

I do understand the logic behind adding charisma to all bolts. And if our single target is affected by Hex, would it take 1d6 or 4d6? It has been hit four times by the way you do the spell this raise the dmg to 52 per round at no cost.

The gwm takes a penalty of 5 to his chances to hit. Our warlock can do all his dmg without sacrificing anything.

Our gwf will do (assuming no magic weapon) 48 or 88 dmg per round depending if he takes the penalty or not. Our sharp shooter will do 38 or 78 if he takes the penalty or not.

None of the fighter base class will have added benefits as the eldritch blast has. I know no blast warlock that does not take repelling blast.

Any way, I will defer to the majority. I must be wrong to see an imbalance in there.

 

[Giant2005]

I don't see how a warlock could invest in a ranged weapon to come close to 4d10+5, especially if only one hit was required for the +Cha damage. Just nitpicking and failing at lurking.

A Blade Pact Warlock with Lifedrinker, Thirsting Blade, max Dex, max Cha, Crossbow Mastery, and access to a magic Hand Crossbow (even a temporarily enchanted one) can do 3d6+30 per round which easily outshines 4d10+5 (and even comes close to matching 4d10+20). Adding SS to the mix would increase it to 3d6+60 at the expense of accuracy.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Of course that character requires 2 maxed out stats, 2 invocations, a feat and a specific magic item, plus their bonus action each round, while the other requires a single stat, a single cantrip and a single invocation.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I do understand the logic behind adding charisma to all bolts. And if our single target is affected by Hex, would it take 1d6 or 4d6? It has been hit four times by the way you do the spell this raise the dmg to 52 per round at no cost.

56, actually, multiplied by your hit probability. But hex does have a cost.

Our gwf will do (assuming no magic weapon) 48 or 88 dmg per round depending if he takes the penalty or not. Our sharp shooter will do 38 or 78 if he takes the penalty or not.

Nobody's talking about GWF or any other feat. What Agonizing Blast does is bring a warlock's combat ability into the same ballpark as a regular, vanilla fighter, by letting him do what the default weapon rules let a fighter do already: add his ability modifier to his damage. Let me reiterate: Agonizing Blast just turns eldritch blast from a poor "weapon" attack into a decent one.

And if we're talking hex, remember, that has a cost: a short-rest resource expended. In order to compare apples to apples, we also have to let the fighter expend a short-rest resource, which means Action Surge, which means the actual value is a round of double those numbers you've given. Yeah, the warlock with hex averages more after that burst, but it'll still take him seven rounds to catch up, and that's if the warlock maintains concentration, and if the fighter doesn't decide to just Action Surge again. And even then, burst damage at the beginning of the fight is more valuable ceteris paribus than damage later in the fight (because killing enemies faster means it's also damage prevention). The warlock is not without advantages: he's got a nice range, and he can't be disarmed. But if we're just looking at the raw numbers, I'd say the fighter comes out ahead.

None of the fighter base class will have added benefits as the eldritch blast has.

Except for all of the benefits that the fighter class gets, like the aforementioned Action Surge, or the Champion's doubled critical chance. The Battle Master can even "repel" his targets with Pushing Attack -- and gets bonus damage on top of that. So I have no idea what you were thinking when you wrote this.

 

[Helldritch]

Do the simulations like I did. Only the eldritch knight sucessfuly closed the gap and had a chance of winning. The archer was forces into fighting at disadvantage with the Blur spell but the fights were about 50/50. All that assuming no magic items.

But if everyone is fine with that, I see no point in arguing anymore.

 

[abirdcall]

Hex is situational, but I keep finding more situations. Hiding? Disadvantage their wisdom checks. I've used it in social situations, giving disadvantage to the prosecution's lawyer's charisma checks on his closing arguments, hexing the agitator's charisma in a derro street demonstration, and so on.

It has really nice range (90') and it isn't an attack (at least as ruled by our DM) or at least not an obvious one. Yes, concentration for it is a pain, but because you can move it after your target is dead it is a pretty efficient use of your precious spell slots especially as it can still be going after your short rest, and it has utility beyond combat limited only by your creativity.

So I'd still say it is a mandatory spell for a warlock.

If you are hiding and then cast Hex, they won't need a Wisdom check to find you as you will have just given yourself away. There are better spells for hiding too such as Invisibility.

In your games it is okay to cast spells at people in court rooms? Why don't you just use Suggestion? And why isn't it used against you?

It is a pretty obvious attack. You cast a spell, the target makes a save, and then gets really bad at doing a thing. If an NPC cast it on your character, you would know.

Its utility out of combat is certainly not worth the spell slot.

In combat it is okay. I would rather use my few slots for more impressive spells. Ones that will have a big impact.

Hex is fine, but hardly mandatory. Any combat where I feel like it would be of use, I would rather spend the slot/concentration on something more useful.

 

[the_redbeard]

If you are hiding and then cast Hex, they won't need a Wisdom check to find you as you will have just given yourself away. There are better spells for hiding too such as Invisibility.

The range is 90', and has a duration of 1 hour with a 1st level slot. You cast it as a bonus action before you move to cover/change lighting (possibly long before if someone is chasing you) and spend your action to hide. Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and you can't hide on the same round it is cast.

In your games it is okay to cast spells at people in court rooms?

A distraction for noise and a deception check.

Why don't you just use Suggestion? And why isn't it used against you?

Suggestion is a 2nd level spell that I don't have (very precious list of known spells, not a wizard), many things have charm immunity or resistance, is only good for one action, has a close range of 30' (making hiding the casting much harder) and HAS A SAVE.

It is a pretty obvious attack. You cast a spell, the target makes a save, and then gets really bad at doing a thing. If an NPC cast it on your character, you would know.

Hex doesn't have a save. As our DM rules it, the character does realize that they are bad at something when they attempt it. They don't necessarily know the source.

So far the spell casting enemies we've had have mostly been clerics.