Vaalingrade
Legend
The ultimate power in D&D: Lazy Writing.why would the undead have an all-consuming need to kill the living?
The ultimate power in D&D: Lazy Writing.why would the undead have an all-consuming need to kill the living?
mindflayer may be evil but they would be foes regardless they eat us and are parasites meaning they have to kill us in the name of survivalI'm all for the shift to treating orcs and goblins as real people and not ethnic stereotypes. I see plenty of room for ghosts and ancestor spirits to be benevolent (or at least non-malevolent) post-death entities. But the undead, at least as defined by official game lore, are up there with demons and mind flayers as inherently hostile to humanoid life. And I'm okay with that.
It fits with their narrative heritage, where the fools who think they can negotiate with vampires or that their loved one's hungry zombie corpse can still be reasoned with are the ones who end up lunch. It fits with their game lore, where the undead are animated by negative energy that's inherently antithetical to life. It fits with their game function, which is to be a clear evil that can be fought directly and without compunction.
Now, it's possible to do something else with the undead. Heck, I played my share of Vampire: the Masquerade back in the 90s. But as I got older I've grown less fond of vampire sob stories about they feel really bad about all the terrible things they do. So if you want to create worlds of selfless necromancers elevating the worthy into deathless immortals that can coexist seamlessly with the living, go right ahead. I'll continue to enjoy my games of Smiting the undead scourge before they murder a village of innocents.
The only difference is that one playstyle is going to continue to get official support and the other isn't. That doesn't have to be a value judgment if you don't want to make it one. Just don't get upset or confused as to why one is getting official support and the other isn't.
It's complicated, because in older editions while the mindless undead were less innately evil, the act of creating them was more so.Undead in D&D have run a gamut on being evil and hating life or not.
Skeletons and zombies in AD&D and 3.0 were neutral. When animated by Animate Dead they could only do as commanded, not even attacking in self defense on their own. In 3.5 they were turned inherently mindless evil. In many editions they are used as common wandering monsters who will attack upon sight. 5e gives them some intelligence.
okay but why was it evil if the creature was not evil?It's complicated, because in older editions while the mindless undead were less innately evil, the act of creating them was more so.
In AD&D 2e the spell Animate Dead had a clause at the end stating "Casting this spell is not a good act, and only evil priests use it frequently." In D&D 3e Animate Dead is tagged a "Necromancy [Evil]" spell, again denoting that using it is an evil act with alignment implications.
So the game has always been clear that undead are bad news. It's just the shift is from a cosmic moral judgment on the creator to a more mortal social censure for creating what's essentially a rabid animal on a loose leash. Which is an interesting shift in its own right, and probably reflects how the importance of alignment and their cosmic moral weight has been lessened over the decades.
Being wrong on the internet. That's what's so scary.the second argument was made to justify a position, what is so scary about just stating undead and making them no more intrinsically wrong than any other action the pc do?
I think it is more so great fear of what happens if we let the undead not be evil but I fail to see what that great fear is?Being wrong on the internet. That's what's so scary.
No joke: I roasted some dude on the WotC forums in an argument over whether casting Animate Dead was evil, pointed out the 3e skels and zombs were mindless Neutral creatures, and proposed a scenario called Sol Sodata that involved a truly benevolent use of Animate Dead to protect a settlement Seven Samurai style.
Turns out that guy was one of the designers.
And then by total coincidence skels and zombs were Neutral Evil (despite still being mindless and the 'mindless creatures are Neutral' rule still being in the MM) replete with the stupid 'go on a murder spree if uncontrolled' that said guy tried to use before I pointed out wasn't in the MM now in the MM.
So basically this is my fault. Or Monte Cook's (who was not the guy I roasted), since he wrote it out in the Second Worst D&D Book Ever Printed, the BoVD shortly before the .5 edition change. So blame him.
that would be interesting a divide between responsible and irresponsible undead use.The world-building thing to do there is to make it easier to create or use undead created with evil spirits that hunger to tear the living apart than it is to use raw negative energy for neutral undead.
Ah yes, I KNEW the Undead had a good reason to hate the living. This confirms it!The ultimate power in D&D: Lazy Writing.
In 3e there were two big aspects.okay but why was it evil if the creature was not evil?
You might as well ask why the designers "fear" what happens if we let elves have human lifespans, or "fear" what happens if we let constructs reproduce biologically.I think it is more so great fear of what happens if we let the undead not be evil but I fail to see what that great fear is?
Yes, that is true. One could also have a scenario where a necromancer with good intentions recklessly raises an army of undead to defend their kingdom against an invader, and then the necromancer is slain and the undead turn on both sides, slaughtering them all. This scenario would fall apart if the minions weren't at risk of running amok.Zombies and skeletons being bound by their creator's command allows things like Hollowfaust where a city run by lawful neutral necromancers uses tons of animated undead as armies and workers for the protection of their citizens to create a safe haven where people can thrive in a hostile environment. They are against making predatory undead and use their animated undead in utilitarian and not evil fashion. This creates a distinct different flavor area that can be interesting. This falls apart if their animated draft beasts and soldiers are actually at risk of running amok at any moment and killing the people the necromancers want to protect.
okay but why was it evil if the creature was not evil?
the second argument was made to justify a position, what is so scary about just stating undead and making them no more intrinsically wrong than any other action the pc do?
you are correct in what the arguments are but there to hide behind not deal with the fundamental out of universe question that matters.
this is not arguing that undead can't be used as antagonists nor that making the undead is a good thing.
So you also want to remove the "my character is dark and edgy" schtick!?so all I am seeing is more reason the has to hate all living just because is foolish
but why is it supernaturally evil in the first place?In 3e there were two big aspects.
One all undead creation spells had the [Evil] descriptor which I took to be that it tapped Cosmic Supernatural [Evil] as a force of the universe as part of their magical component, regardless of the morality of the individual use of the spell. Like in the movie Time Bandits. Supernatural evil as just part of undeath, which is separate from moral evil.
This ties into the second 3e aspect, all undead detect as evil under the detect evil spell. This is regardless of their actual individual alignment.
In my own games I house ruled undead as having the full on [Evil] monster subtype which explicitly makes you interact mechanically as evil regardless of your individual alignment.
I think undead being created and powered by supernatural evil works well narratively, even if they can individually be not morally evil.
there is no conflict on elf life span, heck there are media settings where that is the case.You might as well ask why the designers "fear" what happens if we let elves have human lifespans, or "fear" what happens if we let constructs reproduce biologically.
It's an aesthetic decision, based partly on the mythological roots of undead, and partly on the designers' personal preference. If you don't like that aesthetic, you're free to change it in your campaign. Personally, I think it gives animated undead much more resonance than making them smelly robots.
look what makes it evil if some gods say x thing is bad that would rapidly make everything evil as some god is against everythingin 3e a Lawful Neutral cleric of a Neutral Evil god would Detect as Evil because of the taint of divine/cosmic ‘Evil‘ on them. In the same way a mindless (neutral) undead would detect as Evil because they were created by Evil magic/powers - it was their interaction with Evil powers that made them Evil not their alignment.
Undeath as a state challenged natural order and offended certain gods so by ‘cosmic‘ morality was inherently Evil. They rationale of cosmic morality seems to have been lost from the game, thus it becomes a world building point for each DM
honestly yeah most people use it as a crutch to make something they feel rebels against the norm or are just doing it to justify their murderhobo desires, to kill the written text for it so they have to figure out how to do it properly.So you also want to remove the "my character is dark and edgy" schtick!?
Maybe so, but if you don't want an undead player species that appeals to the sort of player who likes to play undead characters, why do you want it?honestly yeah most people use it as a crutch to make something they feel rebels against the norm or are just doing it to justify their murderhobo desires, to kill the written text for it so they have to figure out how to do it properly.
Zombie apocalypse fiction comes to mind.where in mythology is undead pure hate the living kill on sight?
you assume edge lords are the only fans of darkness.Maybe so, but if you don't want an undead player species that appeals to the sort of player who likes to play undead characters, why do you want it?
that is not a myth, secondly most of those are plagues these days as it is not hate but hunger or the desire to spread the infection.Zombie apocalypse fiction comes to mind.
No, that was your assumption. But you said your don't think undead PCs should be dark at all.you assume edge lords are the only fans of darkness.