Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
It’s actually a very large yo-yo.
D&D 5E Have we misunderstood the shield and sword fighter (or warrior)?
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
You armor isn't "carried in one hand" when equipped like a shield, though, is it?
Most shields were held one-handed, without a loop to put your arm through (which came later). Viking shields were made to be dropped because the fibers of the wood used would "hug" a weapon lodged in it, making it difficult to be withdrawn. So, because they were made to be dropped, they were held "in one hand" without a strap for the arm.
FWIW, loops were added for cavalry shields IIRC, freeing the shield hand to hold the reins of the steed while the other hand held a weapon, while still allowing for a benefit from the shield.
Smaller loops (as in the red circle shown above) was used for hanging the shield (on walls, boat sides, etc.) when not in use, although I suppose you could slip your hand through it for extra security, but even that shouldn't require your action for the round IMO.
It should mean you gain no DEX bonus to AC nor a shield, then apply advantage because you are literally not defending yourself at all! The only protection you have is whatever armor is worn, which might prevent an attack from injuring you.
Yeah, the designers favored simplicity over logic--I know that--but even in 3E WotC had different AC values IIRC (like flat-footed, which should be a condition in 5E IMO).
Even if shields in your games have straps, you can still drop them if you aren't carrying them in your hand (holding it) as well (so they are braced against attacks). The difference being it would hang from your shoulder/arm instead of falling to the ground. Either way, it is still "dropped" and no longer equipped or benefiting your AC because you can't use it.
IMO, it shouldn't be an action to doff a shield anyway, at worst a bonus action maybe, even if strapped. Either way, you can drop it because it is carried in one hand.
If your shields don't have a strap (such as the Viking round shield, Roman scutum, or many other shields throughout history) dropping it should be a free action, as should picking it up.
(back of Roman scutum shield)
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Argyle King
Legend
I do not believe that dropping a shield and doffing a shield are the same thing.
Dropping an item held in your hands typically means just letting go of it.
Doffing [a shield] would be going through the process of unequipping a shield and stowing it on your person for future use.
Typically, dropping an item also means it would fall to the ground. However, it is possible (and common) for some items to have attached slings -more accurately called a "guige" for shields. In such a case, the item would no longer be in your hand (nor be equipped) but would not fall to the ground.
So, what's the benefit of the guige in that case? The benefit is that the item moves along with you for later retrieval rather than just being tossed on the ground.
(Sidenote: Other items which may benefit from doing something similar are the crossbow and a brace of gunpowder pistols, so as to allow pre-loading before kicking in a door.)
Do I believe a dropped shield is still donned? No
I understand that D&D internationally has abstract rules for certain things.
Currently, it appears that 5e shields are hand-items which give a bonus to AC. From this discussion, it seems that 5e shields are simultaneously considered held in a hand and not held in a hand.
Can casting the Command spell force someone to drop a shield?
I had thought yes, but now I'm unsure.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
Okay, now I get where you're coming from story-wise, but I'm not 100% sure that I follow you rules wise. If you "drop" your shield (either on purpose or by something that causes you to drop stuff (unconscious, paralyzed, disarmed maybe), you are saying that it's no longer donned (you don't benefit from its AC bonus) but it is ALSO not "doffed" - which you're defining more as "putting it away" so that it's carried, but not in hand, rather than just un-equipped. (I'm not sure how accurate wearing it on your back is, but I think that's how most people imagine it).
Did you add the idea of the guige after this discussion? Is it just a matter of "picking up" a dropped shield to re-equip it, rather than an action? So, if I'm right, you consider the action for equipping to be, again, more about getting it out (off your back, say) than about strapping it to your arm (as a lot of people imagine).
Does that mean that you could pick up any shield off the ground and use its AC bonus, without spending an action, though?
Honestly, I can get on board with your interpretation, either way. I hadn't thought of it that way before. It's a pretty big shield that would take fully "strapping" it on.
So if I don a shield I get A +2 AC. Then I drop it without doffing it, so now it is on the ground my hand is free and I still get a +2 AC because it is still donned?
To do this you have to houserule it such that dropping it means it is no longer donned.
How about if I don it before combat, then I drop it in combat, then I pick it back up (interaction). Is it now donned again because I never doffed it?
Also there is another affect here. If a shield can be simply dropped then it can be similarly disarmed using the rules in the DMG for disarming an opponent (not to mention the battlemaster maneuver). Also things like the fear spell would presumably make you drop your shield. I've never seen any game played that way.
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Good grief, this aside about what a shield is has gotten out of hand. Despite all evidence to the contrary in the real world, the D&D shield is a wall that you strap to your arm, and requires an action to equip or unequip. It thus cannot be dropped, and it always provides it's AC benefit because D&D shields are not actively used to defend, but things you hide behind for cover.
It's still better than how Pathfinder 2e thinks shields work...
It's still better than how Pathfinder 2e thinks shields work...
Argyle King
Legend
No, you don't still get the AC if it's on the ground. It's no longer in your hand -which, by definition, is a requirement of using a hand item.
In a system with more granularity, you might have it equipped just by picking it up. In 5e you wouldn't because that donning specifically does require an action. I think that's a little weird given that it works differently when picking up a dropped weapon. However, that's an area where the game specifies something that doesn't have a different option.
My understanding is that donning a shield still requires an action.
That is a bit weird with picking things up, but I can see why it would still take an action from a gameplay perspective. There's a limit to how many free interactions you get with objects on your turn.
I was familiar with using a guige before this discussion. While the shields I have do not have them, I am familiar with the concept of a sling/lanyard being attached to a rifle or a crossbow. Also, some of the other rpgs I play have more types of shields.
I can appreciate the simplicity of 5e just having a "shield," but I think there may be room for a little bit more detail.
Maybe still have 1 type of "shield," but offer 1-3 simple options for mundane shield accessories to allow for mimicking things like bucklers, heater shields (with forearm straps), and shields with hand grips.
Argyle King
Legend
What's odd is that even the 5e rules disagree on if a shield is held in the hand. Clearly, donning it only has one option: requires an action. But it is unclear whether or not it is possible to drop (rather than doff) a shield.
So, can the Command spell force a target to drop a shield?
Can a sword & board fighter climb a ladder without first taking an action to doff the shield (so as to use their hand)?
I suppose that's up to the DM.
That's the only real answer we have. Nothing really new for D&D, but 5e really doubled down on it, which makes discussions about the game rather circular.
