D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Cap'n Kobold]

No. It is not. There is no reason to assume a battlemaster has even chosen those manoeuvres. The floor is 0.

Sorry. I think I missed out explaining the reasoning.

Can we agree that maneuvers are roughly balanced with each other in terms of tactical impact on the game? Sometimes the extra damage from giving Commander's strike to the Rogue will be better, sometimes granting them advantage will be better, sometimes using a maneuver to reduce damage will be what the situation needs, but they are all roughly the same effectiveness when used by a character built for them in the right situation.
Does that seem reasonable?

Now we can't model the tactical impact of knocking that dragon out of the sky, or disarming that orc champion, or getting the wizard out of melee or a grapple. But if we're just comparing damage between subclasses, we can model spending the Superiority dice on pure damage dealing. - With the earlier assumption that a tactically-inclined BM player will get equivalent use out of whichever maneuvers they actually have.
Not going overboard here: we're not basing this on an optimised BM with feat synergy any more than we're using an optimised Champion as that baseline. We're not taking into account the advantages of on-demand nova extra damage as opposed to random or other benefits: we're just calculating todal damage done per day rather than more tactical application of the extra damage.

NotAYakk gave a run-down of the damage output for this base-level Battlemaster, to use as a more accurate yardstick to balance the Champion.

 

[Garthanos]

Can we agree that maneuvers are roughly balanced with each other in terms of tactical impact on the game?

Or at least agree that they are intended to be.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

As I keep trying to explain, if you increase damage without increasing complexity it is a de facto nerf to battlemaster, who has to use his brain both in selecting maneuverers and using them to maximum effect.

It's like designing a wizard subclass with this power: "You automatically select the best spell for the situation".

More like "You automatically have a decent spell for a situation." You aren't tossing out a lot of max-level fireballs, but what you can spam is better than an ordinary firebolt. Perhaps some sort of at-will blast of magical energy, eldritch even...

Which is how things stand now. A complex fighter on his worst day has no relevant abilities, or forgets to use their abilities, or has blown all their special abilities before getting to the fight that matters, and so is baseline +0, whereas a Champion on any day is baseline +extra crits.

"To assign some arbitrary numbers to this, say the battlemaster's effectiveness ranges between a 5 and a 10 depending on skill (assuming good-faith play -- no "doesn't roll superiority dice at all" strawmen). Currently the champion is at about a 4. It should be more like a 7. If the battlemaster player can't achieve a 7 and complains about it... git gud, scrub."

Champion is as generic as you can possibly get. There is no character concept that fits champion that can't be fitted by something else just as well, probably better.

Who are you to say that? If a player says "My character is a humble and unschooled soldier, I think champion is the best fit", are you going to tell them "No, play a battlemaster"? You won't commit to helping a player use their class abilities on the most basic level, but you're going to tell them what class to play?

 

[Hayato]

Who are you to say that? If a player says "My character is a humble and unschooled soldier, I think champion is the best fit", are you going to tell them "No, play a battlemaster"? You won't commit to helping a player use their class abilities on the most basic level, but you're going to tell them what class to play?

To be honest, if my player said that, I would tell him to use a folk hero (or maybe urchin/outlander) background. You can reflavor anything that sound scholar.

 

[Hayato]

It's hard to play other subclass outside BM and EK when you face theses situations:

• A flying creature (medium/large) is attacking you.
-> EK uses fly spell.
-> BM uses trip attack with a throw axes.
-> Others melee fighters just sit and wait the creature gets tired.

• A enemy try to pass you and attack your friends.
-> EK uses hold person/booming blade
-> BM uses your reaction to use trip attack, knocking the enemy down. Or, maneuvering attack letting your ally move back. Or, distracting strike.
-> Others, outside Cavalier, just hope to have Sentinel feat.

 

[Garthanos]

• A flying creature (medium/large) is attacking you.
-> EK uses fly spell.
-> BM uses trip attack with a throw axes.
-> Others melee fighters just sit and wait the creature gets tired.

So what if your Champion or Samurai or Cavalier player said I want to try and shoot my arrow to foul the beasts wings what difficulty do you set? A battlemaster with Precision strike and no trip might make the same request so its not just these other cases it could be a BM asking.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

To be honest, if my player said that, I would tell him to use a folk hero (or maybe urchin/outlander) background. You can reflavor anything that sound scholar.

We're talking about whether or not the flavor of the champion is the best fit for some characters. If you give this player a different class and then have to reflavor it to get it to fit the character, you have conceded that the flavor of the champion would have been a better fit.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If a battlemaster dice has 0 damage impact it's because the player actively chose to use 1 of the following:
1. Evasive Footwork - Gain AC against OA's (position himself)
2. Parry - reduce damage from an attack (self survivability)
3 Rally - grant temp hp (party survivability)

That's the only maneuvers that have no affect on damage output. All of those are useful in other ways and in many cases could be more valuable than the damage that could otherwise be provided.

Or they don't know any manoeuvres that are legal for them to use in the situation. In addition to the ones you mention, the following manoeuvres may make zero contribution to damage or be simply unusable:
Commander's Strike, Disarming Attack, Precision Attack, Sweeping Attack.

From the recent UA, there is also: Ambush, Bait and Switch, Brace, Restraining Strike, Silver Tongue and Studious Eye.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Or they don't know any manoeuvres that are legal for them to use in the situation. In addition to the ones you mention, the following manoeuvres may make zero contribution to damage or be simply unusable:
Commander's Strike, Disarming Attack, Precision Attack, Sweeping Attack.

From the recent UA, there is also: Ambush, Bait and Switch, Brace, Restraining Strike, Silver Tongue and Studious Eye.

I think that a BM not being able to find a constructive use for any of the maneuvers that they have chosen is a pretty edge case.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I think that a BM not being able to find a constructive use for any of the maneuvers that they have chosen is a pretty edge case.

And the sort of thing that makes me say, "You opted for this class that chooses maneuvers, you have chosen poorly, these are the consequences, I shouldn't handicap the champion because of your mistake."