Have you ever created a workable lawful evil or neutral evil country?

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am curious: have you, as DM, ever created (or modified from a country already in a setting) a workable lawful evil or neutral evil nation?
If yes, what was this place like? Who were it's primary denizens? It's primary religions? It's primary industry? It's principal means of waging war or defending itself?

I myself used Dambrath, from the FR setting, and modified it for this purpose. I wanted to create a nation to threaten characters and good aligned NPCs (and other interests of the characters) alike.
What did you'all come up with? How did your idea (s) work?

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Gilladian]

The closest I've come is a nation with Lawful Evil leadership. The people are generally neutral - the more powerful a person socially or politically, the more likely to be evil or leaning towards evil. I see it as something like radioactivity - the more time you spend near evil, the more you are likely to be tainted by it, probably without even knowing it.

I don't have a LOT of detail on them but here's a link to my wiki if you want to read about Miran: http://vishteercampaign.pbwiki.com/Miran

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thanks much, Gilladian. I'm looking at it now (looks neat )

In the case of my Dambrath, the people - almost all the people - are evil. And I mean vile evil, as it were. My Dambrath is a really nutty place, an insane place. It has to be, in my opinion. It has to be a scary place to daunt the PCs and the nations and peoples they represent.
I mean, you know the illithid are evil, and the aboleth won't even talk with the illithid - the aboleth are really nasty. But then, Menibone is even worse because it's peopled with humanoids, and they act worse than any of the illithid or aboleth! (In other words, from the point of view of a good character, this nation just has to go.)

 

[CanadienneBacon]

The Scarred Lands campaign setting has a very workable evil empire named Calastia. I pilfered quite a few ideas from Calastia when I was working on the background for the Shackled City AP.

 

[Felix]

I've an Emperor who's rather like Havelock Vetinari, the patrician of Ankh-Morpork in Terry Pratchett's marvelous Discworld books. He's ruthless and evil, but under his rule Ankh-Morpork is thriving.

I like the idea that Evil Ruler =/= Bad Ruler, and that empire in my campaign world plays that part.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Can't say as I've ever drawn one up in detail but I have considered them. Especially Lawful Evil. I would say that a LawfuL Evil country would not necessarily be a bad place to live. Stable society, clean streets, trains that run on time. Obviously there'd be a secret police force or two and everyone would fear the early morning knock on the door and being "disappeared." But small prices to pay for a reliable train timetable.

I think the thing to remember is that the society is LAWFUL as well as evil. There will be those folks who will place as much or more emphasis on the Law as on the Evil. Folks to whom the Law is important at the most visceral of levels. I can't help but feel there would be an emphasis on the form over the spirit of any laws. Not to mention a certain amount of "if you can get away with it, then it's OK." But law nonetheless. Values that would be held dear would be stability, tradition, the group as a whole rather than individuals within it. In fact I'd say that the needs of individuals being made wholly subservient to the society would be a hallmark. Justice without mercy.

I think Gilladian has a good point. There will be a greater percentage of evil people closer to the power centres. After all, one of the things that is used to define most evil characters is a desire for power. But also the constant struggle for power within the higher echelons would lead to a winnowing out of the unfit (read: those who just don't play hard enough.) Something that the society as a whole might well approve off as it means that the leaders are the ones best qualified to kick ass in the dog-eat-dog daily struggle that is the world. A negative world view like this would be an essential part of the underlying philosophy. A Lawful Evil society believes the world is tough, unforgiving, morally bankrupt and actively hostile, so the society needs to be as well in order to compete. The most important skills in a such a government would be Bluff, Sense Motive, KS: Bureaucratics, Uncanny Dodge and Paranoia.

Something a lawful evil society must have is laws. If you're drawing one up I'd suggest coming up with a list of laws for it. This will let you know what the society deems appropriate behaviour. Or even necessary behaviour. Obviously cover the biggies: murder, treason, theft, being a member of a proscribed group. But also little ones like attending church, obeying the social pecking order, sumptuary laws, maybe even the times to eat and sleep (ala the military and prison.) As well as purely arbitrary laws that serve no purpose save to be laws, like in Kafka's The Trial. And consider the official exceptions to the rules. As the Clash sing: Murder is a crime, unless it's done by a policeman.

On the surface I don't think you'd see much difference between a Lawful Good society and a Lawful Evil one. The time it would be most obvious would be when the society deals with someone who breaks the Law. If you're a thief you'd much rather be in the charge of a kindly, naive social worker than a concentration camp guard. There'd also be an air of paranoia and distrust to a LE society but this may not be immediately noticeable.

For inspiration look to Nazi Germany (Ya know, taken out of context that would sound SOOOOOOOOOO bad) or any modern communist dictatorship. As I mentioned above The Trial by Franz Kafka is another inspirational read. ANd, although it's on the lighter side of tryannical despotism, the old Paranoia game if you can find a copy.

I've harped on about the Law side of things, but I think most people already have an idea of evil in the DnD sense.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Look above he got it right

Though I generally put most humanoid individuals as either neutral or lawful neutral in various settings, with leadership cadres and elites mostly if not exclusively evil. In general any organization larger than a small village tends toward the Lawful axis. Basically a group larger than company sized can't maintain itself without strong tendencies toward order and systems to enforce that. And the larger a group gets beyond that threshold the more it's leadership and enforcement groups will tend toward the evil end of the G-E axis.

 

[Loonook]

Yeah, I have a whole trade confederation claiming itself a nation-state that is Lawful Evil. Lawful Evil doesn't necessarily mean unwise; as Drunkonduty pointed out, if you can get the trains to run on time, a lot of people will turn their head when it comes to the whole genocide of the indigenous peoples or a small group of nobles meeting a bloody end in a freak orc raid.

Lawful Evil men, women, and creatures are amazing allies... if you can get them to see you worthwhile and not as a threat or an inferior. It is that very balancing act that keeps the Sarian merchant houses in line. They have no trouble in dominating the market, selling services to both sides of a war, or placing their members into intrigue for the benefit of the 'better half'; however, if that subordinate would find himself getting a bit too dangerous or lax on his position, it wouldn't be a surprise to find him crucified at a major crossroads in an act of banditry.

The Ostari Imperials love Sarian tradesmen, as they perform their work at cost and to the greatest efficiency . . . as long as they are 'observed' to prevent the occasional piece of shoddy material from somehow finding itself in a siege engine which could possibly be used against the Confederacy when the Emperor's men find out about the work being performed by Sarian engineers under the guise of a trade mission near their walled border with a warring city-state.

Sarians are some of my favorites to play, but we sure aren't finding too many white-cloaked Paladins riding in their caravans.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, this is all I have written down for now about the Nega Imperium in my Aurelia homebrew, amidst the Draegi racial entry in my HR thread. My campaigns have thus far been mostly rural/wilderness adventures, or taking place in a single good kingdom, so there hasn't been a lot of evil-empire stuff going on in the foreground of the campaigns so far.

"The Mentari tribes who befriended negative energy outsiders to further their power were quickly forced away from the other Mentari tribes, before they could capitalize on their frightening new allies, and these exiled Mentari fled underground for a time, eventually producing half-outsider offspring from relations with those negative energy creatures. Over time, as fewer outsiders joined these Mentari tribes, that part of the race became what it is now, the Draegi, altered humans with distant negative energy outsider ancestry.

The progenitors of the Draegi made frequent attempts to conquer the other Mentari tribes on the surface, until the gods destroyed the majority of the Mentari people. Afterwards, the Draegi lived upon the surface but still held many strongholds deep beneath the ground, in the borderlands alongside the Negative Energy Plane. The Draegi now live in various large strongholds and a few sprawling farm communities near those, with nearly all Draegi settlements belonging to the singular Nega Imperium.

This government encompasses the sparse underground communities along the Negative Energy Plane borderlands, and also various surface territories held by the Draegi and their few allies. The Draegi have had several centuries, perhaps a couple of millenia even, to build and secure their surface strongholds, and have been slowly growing in number and influence during that time. They have brought several orcish tribes, giantish clans, Gnoll clans, corrupt Dwarven delves, and others into their Imperium as subjects and slaves.

The Nega Imperium built by the Draegi is now the strongest power in the subterranean realms, and is strong enough on the surface not to be trifled with. Still, the Draegi were never as numerous as the other common races, so they still don't represent any serious threat, and likely won't for a few more centuries to come. Nonetheless, they have gained allies and slaves for their empire, and are at least a dire threat to a few individual surface kingdoms.

The Draegi build their structures to be sturdy and long-lasting, with resilient and strong materials and often a gothic appearance. While the Draegi are relatively barbaric and cruel, their civilization is functional and not entirely oppressive. The Nega Imperium has many slaves who are treated poorly and cruelly, but citizens are allowed to do nearly anything they like without punishment, though Draegi military sentries patrol the Imperium settlements regularly and in great numbers. Citizens who do act against the interests and loose laws of the Imperium are quickly noticed, tortured, and slain by sentries, without trial.

However, the ranks of the sentries are carefully monitored and chosen, so most Imperial sentries do not just commit wanton violence. Draegi are generally loyal to the Nega Imperium and its Imperator, but those who feel neglected, left out of important battles or duties, treated unfairly, or wronged by the Imperial leaders may sow dissent occasionally and try to overthrow the Imperium, though such rabble-rousers are quickly ferreted out and dispatched. A fair number of Draegi live outside the Imperium however, living amongst other races and trying to be accepted."

 

[Nlogue]

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