Have you ever created a workable lawful evil or neutral evil country?

I've just finished reading Martin Cruz Smith's Gorky Park, and find the Soviet Union (as portrayed in the novel) is an excellent example of a Lawful Evil world. The rules are set up to benefit the bureaucracies. A prosecutor who proves the innocence of a poor sap upsets a lot of people and faces reprisal, not because it uncovers a conspiracy, just because it would have been easier to execute and not worry about justice. A KGB agent kills political prisoners, not because he was ordered to, but because there were "whispers" he knew he had to follow. And the wise people in the story, when they find the bodies and realize they were political prisoners, aren't interested in investigating how they died. Policemen catch their quota of criminals, and no more, because the people that be say there's only so much crime, and if you arrest too many criminals, it may mean that the policeman next to you can't catch any, and that looks unrealistic and makes him look bad.

To summarize, in this LE country, you follow the rules, especially the unwritten ones, and you follow the desires of your superiors. You don't make waves; making waves is the most reliable way to get crushed. Everyone's an informant, and everyone knows when to turn a blind eye.
 

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Gorky Park: I saw the movie years ago but don't remember it that well. Sounds like I should read the book. Another good source of Lawful Evil inspiration, and I can't believe I only just remembered it, is 1984.

Must agree with you Twowolves: can't really see a Neutral Evil society. As HeavenShallBurn pointed out any group over a certan size must have rules and regulations. WIhtout them it ceases to be a society, it might be a bunch of small tribes living near one another but it's not one society.

But on the other hand, in places like Ravenloft maybe we can have societies dedicated to pure Evil. Mwah hah hah etc.
 

Here's what I did with Dambrath.

I portrayed Dambrath as being a criminally insane, violent, deranged place where the people have a horribly misplaced sense of loyalty based on truly unholy brainwashing and the effect and influence of evil magic.
The people of Dambrath consist of the Crinti (the half-elf/half-drow, although half-elf/half-human and half-drow/half-humans also occur), the Drow (surface adjusted drow), and a large human population who are the descendants of the barbarian empire that once existed here.

The Crinti are looked upon with awe by all others in the country. Those who are pure Crinti are looked upon more highly than those who are part Crinti, but ALL of them are considered to be Superior Beings. It is their divine right to rule, to enact and enforce laws, and to enact the will of Loviatar and Lolth, the two sanctioned state religions.
Drow are also considered Superior Beings, but lower on the divine latter than the Crinti.
Humans are next.
Slaves do not have any innate value in Dambrath. Dambrath enslaves foreigners and those it takes in war, but never any of it's own people (Dambrath, instead, punishes and reeducates miscreants amongst it's own. It is not a pleasant process.)
All of the people of Dambrath religiously and rigorously observe the system of hierachy above, and even the lowliest human would be quite willing to kill the blasphemer who dared to suggest he was equal to a Crinti in any way (much less that he was entitled to the rights said Crinti had.)

Loyalty to Dambrath is the same as loyalty to both Loviatar (Our Lady of Pain) and Lolth (Our Lady of War.) Total loyalty is expected out of all citizens, be they Crinti or human, high or low, and anyone who is disloyal receives reeducation (if they are seriously disloyal in any way, they are killed and sent to the Pits of Tarterus, where Loviatar's Unholy Minions deal with them. Treason will NOT be tolerated.)
Loyalty includes reverence of those who are better than you are, and who are above you in station. Disloyalty to them, is disloyalty to Dambrath, and thus disloyalty to Loviatar and Lolth. You are expected to do as you are told. Everyone does ... and they eagerly compete in madness to see who can be the most loyal, who can give the most for his nation and people, who can achieve the greatest feats for Loviatar and Lolth. It truly is For Your People, Country, and Gods. And may the Gods help you if you don't work hard to show your loyalty!

Children are raised by loving (that is, criminally insane) parents who tutor them relentlessly and horrifically in order to prepare them for the requisite training of the state (all children from the equivalent of 7 up are drafted into these state academies.)
Children must then, upon becoming cadets, undergo torture until they either go mad (in which case Restoration is used, and the process begins again) or they learn to Wrap the Cloak of Evil around themselves. Upon embracing the Darkness, these children become immune to any and all physical pain, instead feeling these sensations as pleasure.
It is a SERIOUS CRIME thereafter to intentionally inflict pain (thus, pleasure) upon oneself or another, without permission!! Doing so means forcible withdrawal of the Cloak of Darkness, and severe torture as punishment. Then a period of probation (which, if violated, means probable execution. Dambrath will not tolerate decadence and anything else which interferes with the productivity of the citizen.)
Granted permission, cadets are allowed to torture prisoners and slaves, as reward for hard work and progress in their studies. Pain is inflicted (as pleasure) as a reward for academic achievement and physical achievement.

In this sick, twisted environment, the young men and women of Dambrath are all monstrous by the time they are 16, sadistic monsters ready to take up sword and wand and mace, and spread terror and horror to all the rest of the world. All in the name of their People, Dambrath, Loviatar, and Lolth.
Of course, internal service to the nation is also stressed, and those who are seen as the greatest achievers are usually promoted to positions of power. Although Lolth is whimsical about such things, Loviatar definitely believes in a Meritocracy, and she is the chief Goddess of this Realm.

The warriors and wizards of Dambrath are thus insanely motivated to fight, kill, and destroy. This is their meat. The pain and horror of battle of war is their drink. For this reason, they do not suffer the horrors of war as normal people (everyone else, their enemies) do, and they are not incapacitated by wounds that would down others. With their powerful magic, they find ways to stand and fight even as they are being hacked to pieces.
Death is NOT considered an excuse to remove oneself from one's duty to country and deity in Dambrath! A body part is brought back if at all possible, and Resurrection is mandatory (the soul may not refuse this, because the minions of Loviatar and Lolth force the soul back.) There is NO excuse for refusal to do one's duty for Dambrath, EVER (someone believing that this is not the case, might just end up doing his duty as an undead, for hundreds or thousands of years, instead of going off to Loviatar's Paradise, as a warning to everyone else about responsibility.)

Economically, Dambrath raises the finest horses in Faerun. None of these are ever sold or gifted to foreigners, but some have been stolen, provoking wars as the Dambrathans seek their return. For Dambrathans, their horses are beyond price, the pride of the Realm, the distilled essence of their efforts.
Dambrath also has a large trade in pearls, precious metals (including mithril and adamantite), finished goods, weapons and armor (of lower quality), lumber (which can actually survive in tropical conditions), citrus crops, exotic crops, and more mundane goods.
Foreigners are perfectly welcome in Dambrath to trade, so long as they stay in specially assigned quarters, travel on only certain roads, have special permission to enter the country in the first place, pay all the appropriate taxes, and as long as they are not elves or half elves. Foreigners who trespass, break the rules, or who are elves or half elves, end up as slaves.
Dambrath ships ply the waters to any port willing to receive them, from Zakhara in the south to Luskan in the north, usually accompanied by warships for their protection against pirates, sahuagin, aboleth, and the other dangers of the perilous Trackless Ocean. Dambrath traders are strict about obeying the laws of nations they visit, since trade enables Dambrathan prosperity. Traders who cannot obey foreign laws, will probably suffer the penalties of those foreign lands. When they get back home, they can expect a far worse punishment yet.

As noted, Dambrath honors and reveres it's Crinti, who are a combination of elf, human, and drow. Dambrath does not otherwise distinguish or follow the recognized alliances and hatreds between these races, considering elves and half elves of a typical nature to be pitiful barbarians not worth consideration (and most certainly, not worthy of stepping onto Dambrath's sacred soil.) This includes even the elves of Zakhara, who are considered to be deluded noble savages.
Drow who insist on making war on Dambrathan drow are considered Traitors, a designation far worse than Enemy, and those captured are enslaved at once. Enemy humans are considered pitiful specimens, hardly worth of even enslavement. Other races are regarded as curiosities, worthy of enslavement and magical experimentation to see how they work.
And what are slaves good for? Not as workers!! The PEOPLE of Dambrath work, and revel in the honor of working day and night for the greater glory of the country. No, slaves are used for torture, as the reward for service. Loviatar preaches the joy of inflicting pain and horror, and slaves exist to receive that pain and horror. That is all they exist for, and that is how they die (if they are lucky ... the Endless Death is a common practice in Dambrath.)

Much of what Dambrath's 'loving' parents do to their children, for their own good, is so utterly horrible, so sick and twisted, that it cannot be described here on ENWorld. Suffice it to say, these children are traumatized into insanity very quickly by this treatment. So long as the insanity progresses along the lines desired, all is well. If the insanity becomes counterproductive, a Restoration spell is used to correct the situation.
The Silken Shroud of Evil is a powerful cloak. Once wrapped in it, children find warmth and safety and an eager satisfaction in experiencing horror and inflicting more horror. And as they are hurt and they hurt, the Evil grasps them tighter and tighter, until there is no escape and they are lost to it. Only truly powerful spells of Good and Exalted nature can tear away this unholy shroud and insanity, and give these bestial, berserk, warped men and women a second chance at normality and what most would consider a normal existence.
Then again, it Pays to Be Evil (as Dambrathans would say.) Those loyal to Loviatar and Lolth, go to Paradise in Gehenna or the Abyss (it IS Paradise, for all intents and purposes.) So a life of aggression, madness, obsession, and murder is rewarded with an eternity of bliss.
Those who are disloyal go to Gehenna or the Abyss, and enjoy the *normal* state of those Planes, and they suffer the wrath of both Loviatar and Lolth. Unless they can convince another deity such as Helm or Torm to take them, of course, and this does occasionally happen. Exalted characters and NPCs can turn Dambrathans to the Light, in which case Exalted deities automatically give their support and protection to the recalcitrant Dambrathan.
Dambrathans KILL exalted characters and NPCs on sight. If the soul can be destroyed or imprisoned also, this is done. The imprisoned soul is then secreted away, and if other exalted people come to rescue them, then so much the better ... they are killed also.

Dambrathans live in large fortress cities, massively protected against physical and magical attack from above, below, from Realmspace, from the Planes, from Psionics, and every other known means of attack the Dambrathans can think of.
Steel is a favorite material of construction, since magic makes it easy to create, it is incredibly hard and strong, and it's lusterless, dark obdurate strength well befits the aestetic values of those who live and work within it's labrinith mazes. Walls and battlements, pill boxes and crenelations, murder holes and windowless rooms, gray walls and grayer assemblies, are the world of these people. It would be a dark dwarf's delight, these places, if only rock was added to the mix.

The climate of Dambrath is not friendlier than the aestetics of it's cities or it's people.
Summer begins in the equivalent of March, with temperatures in the 100s and lows in the 80s. By June, temperatures are nearly 130 and nighttime lows are near 100. Toril's sun is closer during the Northern Summer, so one may add 30 to 40 degrees to the temperature in it's light. Humidity, however, is rather low. Incredible windstorms occasionally blow in from the north, chinooking over the mountains, through the forest north of Dambrath, roaring across it's plains. Winds occasionally gust to 150 miles per hour, and gusts over 100 miles per hour are common. So are prairie fires, and much of Dambrath is a charred ashen ruin by the end of the hot, dry season.
The hot wet season begins in July, and lasts through October. High temperatures are near 100, lows near 90, and humidity is 70% or higher. Occasional hurricanes strike the coast, and some of these are catastrophic Category 5 monsters (with magical beings in them, such as cloud and storm giants and tempests, along for the fun.) The sea enemies of Dambrath always know when one of these is coming, and take advantage of it to devastate as much of the coast as possible, while the Dambrathans struggle to survive the storm (the Dambrathans, however, believe heartily in this little thing called *retribution* )
The cool dry season lasts from November through February, and sees highs in the 80s and lows in the 60s (50s in the north.) Severe windstorms from the north are common, and freak cold occasionally hits this otherwise tropical nation (said to be the Wrath of Loviatar, this cold can cause sub-zero temperatures and heavy snow over large parts of the Realm ... as Dambrath is too far south for such phonomenon to occur naturally, it probably is just that.)
The cool, dry season is also the time most popular for traders to arrive, and for Dambrath's port cities and borders to bustle with foreigners ... all of them carefully watched and marked, as they go about their business.

The people of Dambrath are not afforded shelter from the bad weather, with magical air conditioning or heating! Running water does not exist. Sanitation is non-existant.
Disease is rampant. Cure Disease is readily available, and granted to the hard working. Those who complain receive no help. Those who complain are shirking the normal pain of existence, and the best you could possibly do for these people (other than Reeducation, of course) is to require them to endure as much misery as possible.
Hunger is also rampant. Dambrath's fields and it's climate are not suitable for grain crops, and little food is imported. Exotic drow dishes do not agree with human stomachs. But suffering is a part of life, hunger is suffering, and if one refuses to suffer, that is treason to the Realm and to Loviatar. One MUST suffer. Suffering makes one strong. Suffering makes one powerful. Suffering is the path to power, glory, and eternal bliss.
Note that the Cloak of Darkness does *not* protect against hunger or disease or the simple displeasure of hard work! You are expected to endure and cherish those things, and in so doing making a better person out of yourself. If you cannot do this, then your betters will be required to strengthen you through Reeducation (and if that doesn't work, perhaps the strength of being an undead will make you productive and useful?)

Welcome to the Criminally Insane Realm of Dambrath.
The Official Religions are Lolth and Loviatar.
The Predominent Alignment is Neutral Evil.

Enjoy your Stay.
 

Of course, the whole point here is to create a land the PCs will wish to either destroy or somehow remake into a sane, reasonable place.
Dambrathan NPCs are frightful monsters who are completely unafraid of anything, and obsessed with furthering their cause. PCs may try to deal with these dangerous NPCs, or end up fighting them.
For the exalted character, here is a pit of Vile Darkness waiting to be removed by the courageous and the determined.

As for Dambrathan PCs? Not a likely proposition.

Waterdeep, the Lord's Alliance, Luruar, Candlekeep, Cormyr, Aglarond, and Rashemen will not trade or deal with the Dambrath.
Evermeet, Evereska, and all other elven nations are enemies. So are most drow city states.
Halruaa is a powerful neighboring enemy, a nation which has been an enemy since the foundation of Dambrath. On the other side, Var the Golden protects Luiren from Dambrathan incursion with the threat of refusal to do business, and Dambrath (like many other nations) relies on Var the Golden as a vital center of trade.
ALL nations and peoples are wary of Dambrath. Dambrath has spawned a number of infamous pirates (wanted as badly in Dambrath as in the other nations attacked) and one cannot always distinguish a Dambrath merchant from a Dambrath pirate (at least, not until they are too close for comfort.)

And finally, the other sects of Lolth and Loviatar consider the Dambrath religion an outrage (for multiple reasons) and such infidels as these are to be killed on sight (or worse.)

It is not easy, being Dambrathan.
 



The country offers free health care. A worker can spend a mere eight hours in one of the nation's special disease curing chambers, and is cured free of charge.

The disease curing chamber is a Liquid Pain extractor, from the Book of Vile Darkness, with an eternal wand of cure disease.
 

DrunkonDuty said:
Can't say as I've ever drawn one up in detail but I have considered them. Especially Lawful Evil. I would say that a LawfuL Evil country would not necessarily be a bad place to live. Stable society, clean streets, trains that run on time. Obviously there'd be a secret police force or two and everyone would fear the early morning knock on the door and being "disappeared." But small prices to pay for a reliable train timetable. ;)

Well, Dambrathans certainly believe in a stable society (of a sort) and metaphorically the trains run on time. The streets are clean by their standards (not clean as we think of clean, but in good physical shape and, best of all, filled with productive, loyal, dedicated citizens.)
Dambrathans consider their society superior to others, and have considerable evidence to prove their point. For example, say they, they have concluded the millennia long struggle between elves and drow and humans, creating a Superior Race (the Criti) in their place.
And there is peace between drow and surface dweller, between Lolth and Loviatar, a uniting of many races and forces under one banner. In the Bliss of Evil, the nation prevails and prospers. Why can't other peoples and countries realize these truths?
(In other words, if you aren't really, really evil, and really, really dedicated to Loviatar and Lolth, what in the name of Mystra are you doing in Dambrath???)

(snip) In fact I'd say that the needs of individuals being made wholly subservient to the society would be a hallmark. Justice without mercy.

Dambrath believes in justice. Unfortunately, it is their justice. 'Mercy', in their eyes, is Reeducating the wrongdoer. Fortunately for outsiders, they rarely receive this 'mercy.'

I think Gilladian has a good point. There will be a greater percentage of evil people closer to the power centres. After all, one of the things that is used to define most evil characters is a desire for power.

All Dambrathans desire (or, at least, all *proper* Dambrathans desire) the privilege of serving the country as one of it's leaders. And since this is a Meritocracy, and occasionally thanks to Lolth's testing and meddling, practically anyone can come to power (the Sovereign, though, is always Crinti.)
Desire for power won't enable this, however. Only the perverted notions of fanatical service, thralldom to evil, enthrallment of Evil, pleasure in inflicting horror, and being intelligent and competent (miracle of miracles!) and also accomplished in the field and as a character NPC (miracle again ...) confers such honor.
Those who are almost normal and sane people, merely obsessed with obtaining power, won't make it far here. It's just too blasted painful. And crazy. And strange. And since Loviatar and Lolth are both watching, it is pretty hard to 'sneak' your way up the ladder in Dambrath.

But also the constant struggle for power within the higher echelons would lead to a winnowing out of the unfit (read: those who just don't play hard enough.) Something that the society as a whole might well approve off as it means that the leaders are the ones best qualified to kick ass in the dog-eat-dog daily struggle that is the world.

Lolth plays a crucial role here, and prevents Dambrath from decaying into stasis.
Lolth has talked Loviatar into allowing her to constantly 'test' the leadership of the nation (you know about Lolth's 'tests', of course ...) Those that fail, pay the price, with Loviatar's blessing.
Worse yet, Loviatar has her own 'tests' for Dambrathan higher-ups. There is no end to these 'tests', and Loviatar is never satisfied with what she sees in her leadership (when the whole of Faerun has fallen to Dambrath, perhaps she will be satisfied?)
Of course, failing Dambrath as a leader (in war, in peace, or whenever) is just that. The consequences are swift, from both above and below. Will Loviatar have mercy, and grant paradise for the one who gave so much? Or will she denounce that one to the pits of the Abyss? That is Loviatar to know, and for the condemned leader to find out!

A negative world view like this would be an essential part of the underlying philosophy. A Lawful Evil society believes the world is tough, unforgiving, morally bankrupt and actively hostile, so the society needs to be as well in order to compete. The most important skills in a such a government would be Bluff, Sense Motive, KS: Bureaucratics, Uncanny Dodge and Paranoia.

Note that *life* has no value in Dambrath.
One only exists - heck, even one's very soul only exists - to serve the nation and it's deities.
Dambrathans take incredible delight in war and killing, are adept warmongers, and are quite willing to die (and die again, and again ...)
If it weren't for the incredible penalties against unauthorized pleasure, Dambrath would degenerate into a depraved horror of people torturing themselves to death for the joy of it (such are the problems of that 'Cloak of Evil')

I think you have it right about Bluff and Sense Motive. These crazy people may be mad as hatters, but uncanny about ferreting out the false and the traitors in their midst. Especially their own, but also foreigners.
 

"Darkness at Noon" and . . . ugh . . . what's that Greek play about Creon the king and the young daugher he's in conflict with . . . those are some good sources on evil lands/evil regimes.

Anyhow, I agree with the Nazi, Soviet, and Aztec regimes as models.

In pre-written D&D terms, the City State of the Invincible Overlord is great.
 

Slavery and oppression of ethnic/religious groups feature high up on halmarks of a LE society. While it's perhaps possible to have slavery in a neutral and MAYBE a good society (given strongly bounded rights of slaveowners), the ability of one person to be elevated so completely over another and be free to do whatever they want is fairly LE.

I would argue the same would be true in many Caste societies. While having an unclean caste doesn't necessitate a LE society, it's easy to imagine how a society could express that way.

So consider particularly dark and nasty versions of Indian caste system and Japanese society, bound by honor but utterly cruel and indifferent to minorities.
 

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