Have you ever created a workable lawful evil or neutral evil country?
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
kigmatzomat
Legend
I'll agree with slavery being a typical indicator of an evil society, if not being necessary. One of the base tenets of "evil" is considering other sentients as lesser beings, "not people" in other words.
Having said that, some societies can be neutral or basically good while having slavery if it has distinct bounds; e.g. no hereditary slavery, enforced rules against slave abuse, very limited and proscribed ways one could become a slave, such as certain types of criminals (life imprisonment=life in slavery) or military prisoners. A society can be good with these kinds of laws but inevitably will find itself sliding towards evil as the laws are widened or wars of conquest are fought to garner more slaves.
The only kinds of "slavery" that should be adopted by most good societies are the ones where "slave ownership" is more of an effort than a hindrence. E.g. In my Dragon Lance game, a limited form of slavery is practiced in Solamnia according to my understanding of "ward of the state" and serfdom. Essentially, after a person has so screwed up their life/finances that they become a detriment to society they become a ward of the state, which in a feudal society means the nobility. It requires a court hearing (usually the town elders, an outside Knight of Solamnia, and the local lord), only the nobility are assigned serfs, serfdom is non-hereditary, and once a serf's debts are paid off they are returned to citizen status, albeit with a minder for a year or three. The noble is responsible for all the serf's debts (which are almost always significant, at least for a peasant) as well as their upkeep and well being. the noble must keep an open record of the serf's debts, expenses, and earnings, with the town elders and at least one Knight of Solamnia reviewing them quarterly.
Having said that, some societies can be neutral or basically good while having slavery if it has distinct bounds; e.g. no hereditary slavery, enforced rules against slave abuse, very limited and proscribed ways one could become a slave, such as certain types of criminals (life imprisonment=life in slavery) or military prisoners. A society can be good with these kinds of laws but inevitably will find itself sliding towards evil as the laws are widened or wars of conquest are fought to garner more slaves.
The only kinds of "slavery" that should be adopted by most good societies are the ones where "slave ownership" is more of an effort than a hindrence. E.g. In my Dragon Lance game, a limited form of slavery is practiced in Solamnia according to my understanding of "ward of the state" and serfdom. Essentially, after a person has so screwed up their life/finances that they become a detriment to society they become a ward of the state, which in a feudal society means the nobility. It requires a court hearing (usually the town elders, an outside Knight of Solamnia, and the local lord), only the nobility are assigned serfs, serfdom is non-hereditary, and once a serf's debts are paid off they are returned to citizen status, albeit with a minder for a year or three. The noble is responsible for all the serf's debts (which are almost always significant, at least for a peasant) as well as their upkeep and well being. the noble must keep an open record of the serf's debts, expenses, and earnings, with the town elders and at least one Knight of Solamnia reviewing them quarterly.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Heh. I'm no Admin here at ENWorld, but I would say it anyway: Don't use Real World Countries for reference here. Tis not allowed. If that continues, one of the Admins might decide to become *EVIL* and do bad, bad, bad things to us!
Now ...
Dambrath is not a realistic society, obviously. It is a madhouse where the top lunatics run the show. Because the two top mad dogs are deities, there is no easy way to reign them or their creation in (although Bane the Tyrant GREATLY resents this usurpation of his tyranny, and would ally with the 'good' deities to stop Dambrath.)
Dambrath works because two deities are cooperating to make it work. Otherwise, it would self destruct in a heartbeat. But the deities are there, the Power of Evil is there, madness is institutionized and self-perpetuating, and thus you have this cancerous blot on the continent of Faerun. Or, as Grishnakh would have said: 'they're as bad as the others, the maggots and the apes of Luzburg!'
I did not wish to make Dambrath more realistic (ala The Picture of Dorian Gray) because it would have, basically, been too painful. What is realistic, can be very unpleasant (the more realistic films are, for example, the higher the rating they get: from P to PG to PG-13 to R to NC-17.)
Dambrath is a prison society, and all of it's people are slaves. Don't tell them that; they'll kill you for the insult (tis the greatest of honor to fight and die for Loviatar, Lolth, and Evil!)
Slaves in Dambrath are always foreigners. Those in Dambrath who commit crimes so awful as to reduce them to slavery, are instead executed (or, for slightly lesser crimes, turned into undead - such as children who cannot make the grade in the academies, even with 'help' from their teachers.)
Slaves are not worthy of the privilege of working for the Realm. The PRIVILEGE of cleaning a street or sewer, or polishing a person's shoes, belongs solely to the privileged people of Dambrath! Not to slave garbage.
No, slaves are worthy only of being used for amusement, gratification, or magical experimentation (needless to say, very few slaves live long, or wish to live long.)
So Dambrath departs from the model of a large slave population working while the elite enjoy themselves. In Dambrath, the 'elite' work themselves to death (especially those in charge) while slaves sit in pits and wait their turn as 'amusement' or 'reward' for said elite.
Not very nice.
If Dambrath has it's way, it will wage war upon the whole of Faerun, destroying each and every city and Realm in it's turn, exterminating every people, until Faerun is a desert wasteland. All for the sheer pleasure of killing, torture, mayhem, and other unthinkable things.
This is why, see, we have those critters called *Paladins.* Someone has to go and do the dirty jobs of the world (such as wiped out cesspools like Dambrath) and paladins are such people (although the occasional Exalted also gives it a try.)
Then again, argue the paladins and exalted, if the Lord's Alliance, Cormyr, Halruaa and Luruar could only ally and get off their duffs, their combined might could eradicate this nuthouse for once and all. But they just can't seem to get the energy to get off their gilded thrones!
Now ...
Dambrath is not a realistic society, obviously. It is a madhouse where the top lunatics run the show. Because the two top mad dogs are deities, there is no easy way to reign them or their creation in (although Bane the Tyrant GREATLY resents this usurpation of his tyranny, and would ally with the 'good' deities to stop Dambrath.)
Dambrath works because two deities are cooperating to make it work. Otherwise, it would self destruct in a heartbeat. But the deities are there, the Power of Evil is there, madness is institutionized and self-perpetuating, and thus you have this cancerous blot on the continent of Faerun. Or, as Grishnakh would have said: 'they're as bad as the others, the maggots and the apes of Luzburg!'
I did not wish to make Dambrath more realistic (ala The Picture of Dorian Gray) because it would have, basically, been too painful. What is realistic, can be very unpleasant (the more realistic films are, for example, the higher the rating they get: from P to PG to PG-13 to R to NC-17.)
Dambrath is a prison society, and all of it's people are slaves. Don't tell them that; they'll kill you for the insult (tis the greatest of honor to fight and die for Loviatar, Lolth, and Evil!)
Slaves in Dambrath are always foreigners. Those in Dambrath who commit crimes so awful as to reduce them to slavery, are instead executed (or, for slightly lesser crimes, turned into undead - such as children who cannot make the grade in the academies, even with 'help' from their teachers.)
Slaves are not worthy of the privilege of working for the Realm. The PRIVILEGE of cleaning a street or sewer, or polishing a person's shoes, belongs solely to the privileged people of Dambrath! Not to slave garbage.
No, slaves are worthy only of being used for amusement, gratification, or magical experimentation (needless to say, very few slaves live long, or wish to live long.)
So Dambrath departs from the model of a large slave population working while the elite enjoy themselves. In Dambrath, the 'elite' work themselves to death (especially those in charge) while slaves sit in pits and wait their turn as 'amusement' or 'reward' for said elite.
Not very nice.
If Dambrath has it's way, it will wage war upon the whole of Faerun, destroying each and every city and Realm in it's turn, exterminating every people, until Faerun is a desert wasteland. All for the sheer pleasure of killing, torture, mayhem, and other unthinkable things.
This is why, see, we have those critters called *Paladins.* Someone has to go and do the dirty jobs of the world (such as wiped out cesspools like Dambrath) and paladins are such people (although the occasional Exalted also gives it a try.)
Then again, argue the paladins and exalted, if the Lord's Alliance, Cormyr, Halruaa and Luruar could only ally and get off their duffs, their combined might could eradicate this nuthouse for once and all. But they just can't seem to get the energy to get off their gilded thrones!
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
kigmatzomat said:
I think the Dragon Highlords and their armies had a very classic Evil Society.
Their attitude was: 'We shall obliterate the continent of Krynn and it's people, and let the Dark Queen sort out the details afterwards.'
The Dragon Highlords very nearly succeeded. Thanks to their onslaught, most of Ansalon was reduced to a lifeless wasteland. Cities like Silvanost, Solanthus, Vingaard Keep, Tarsis, New Ports, and others were completely destroyed and nearly everyone therein killed. Cataclysm? These guys wreaked a Cataclysm all on their own - no Fiery Mountain needed.
And why did they do this? All for the greater glory of ... all for the sheer pleasure and joy of it, actually. Except for Lord Soth, who did it out of his odd love for Kitiara.
What kind of place would the Dragon Highlords have created, had they won the war?
A feudal society of warlords, with draconians, goblins, minotaurs, and other wretched evil beings enslaved to the whims and ferocity of the evil dragons.
The picture drawn is as bad as what happened in my Dambrath.
Fortunately, a certain mage called Raistlin intervened and stopped this from happening. Not that anyone gives the poor guy any credit for it, of course (other than Astinus.)
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(slightly off-topic)
(regretful look)
Unfortunately, I could never create a Good Nation to equal my Evil Nation (my version of Dambrath.)
It just seems to be very much harder to create a truly 'good' nation compared to a truly 'bad' nation. I don't know why. It just is.
(regretful look)
Unfortunately, I could never create a Good Nation to equal my Evil Nation (my version of Dambrath.)
It just seems to be very much harder to create a truly 'good' nation compared to a truly 'bad' nation. I don't know why. It just is.
HeavenShallBurn
First Post
Not surprising, Good is a hard road to walk. Take it from someone who knows he isn't and is too ingrained to trod that path. In general people are solidly Neutral, Good or Evil are corner cases and take work. But the more people once gets together the greater opportunity for Evil exists. Past a certain threshold Good people just don't rise to the top, power systems select for the Evil because they are willing to take action to seize that power at the expense of those who would be better suited to wield it. In general anyone in positions of power over large groups is going to be Evil, or at best riding the dark end of Neutral.Edena_of_Neith said:
green slime
First Post
Edena_of_Neith said:
My take on it is that there isn't any worldly civilisation or society which can claim to be Lawful Good (perhaps, with the wisdom of the gods, there can be one in the seven heavens, or which ever realm represents LG). It just isn't humanly possible to create such a society, given all the failings and fraility of all the various varieties of humanoids.
The best they can hope for is a LN society that strives for Good.
DrunkonDuty
he/him
Oh I dunno. There's only so much one person can do. Unless it's a very small realm the paladin must rely on others to help with the day to day running. And given classic fantasy tropes the monarch inevitably picks an evil vizier, 30 wisdom not withstanding. Ya can't fight the classics.
I was just thinking of a caste system as being a feature of a lawful society, and a caste system that includes 'untouchables' or 'unpersons' as being an, if not 'evil,' certainly harsh system that promotes indifference to the fate of the lower castes. The more lawful the system, the more rigid and permanant the castes, with arranged marriages and more strict guidelines about what members of what castes can engage in what sorts of relationships and business arrangements and what sort of laws and rights apply to them.
There are less 'evil' ways to have an unsympathetic and 'selfish' culture, say a philosophy that maintains that people are born into such a caste as part of a divine plan, or as karmic punishment for misdeeds in a past life, which would lead to the higher castes being actively discouraged from doing anything for the poorer lower-caste peons, since that would be opposing the divine plan or stalling their karmic progress or whatever. The wealthy castes would walk past beggers and lepers and feel justified to spit at them and smack at them with their riding crops, believing that these people are specifically being punished, and that any sympathy for them is wrong-headed, as they deserve their miserable lives and, indeed, making their lives even more miserable could be seen as *helping* them advance their station, or doing the gods will of punishing them for their misdeeds in prior lives! The further this is taken, the more evil it gets. If the society maintains that living people must advance their spiritual evolution through physical abuse or even follows a 'moral suasion' philosophy, it's well into evil.
[Moral suasion being the practice of torturing members of other faiths until they accepted one's god as their savior, and then immediately killing them so that they couldn't 'backslide into their heathen ways,' thereby 'assuring the salvation of their souls.']
If these sorts of beliefs are backed up by the metaphysical rules of the setting, then an evil society could grow quite powerful. For example, if a worshipper of Loviatar could beat a worshippers of Selune until he 'repents' and swears allegiance to Loviatar, and the torturer then murders him and Loviatar actually gains that persons soul, then the evil gods are going to very much encourage that sort of 'coercive conversion.' The evil gods might choose to reward followers for this sort of deed, perhaps with a single use of a divine spell of a level appropriate to the level / HD of the 'convert.' Alternately, the rewards might be less god-to-mortal and more political and status-related, with those providing the greatest numbers and qualities of converts gaining recognition and status within the church-run bureacracy. If the church doesn't actually run the government, the rewards could be as simple as 'association benefits,' like reduced costs for divine magic at any temple of the appropriate god and 'credits' that can be redeemed for mundane services (cheapest), spellcasting (cheaper by far than normal purchasing of spellcasting) and / or magic items (cheapie stuff like potions and scrolls, mostly). With even these lesser motivations, merchants and nobles and townsfolk alike might make an attempt at 'moral suasion' at some point, to get cheaper access to Remove Disease or perhaps store up 'church credit' against an anticipated sudden need for a Raise Dead...
The Book of Vile Darkness has a bunch of ways in which acts of sacrifice or extractions of pain can be utilized to gain mechanical benefits. Allowing any of these sub-system radically increases the chances that cabals of amoral and selfish people would 'get ahead' by taking advantage of these sources of power. Limiting one of these systems to a special technique only known to certain groups would create a power imbalance. Example: The Church of Loviatar develops the technique to extract Liquid Pain. They can now enchant items at an increased rate compared to other churches (or arcane casters), which puts them in the enviable position to undercut other markets, amass cash and influence, and attract the admiring eye of likewise amoral arcanists, willing to sidle up to the Paingiver to be able to likewise capitalize on their secrets of power...
There are less 'evil' ways to have an unsympathetic and 'selfish' culture, say a philosophy that maintains that people are born into such a caste as part of a divine plan, or as karmic punishment for misdeeds in a past life, which would lead to the higher castes being actively discouraged from doing anything for the poorer lower-caste peons, since that would be opposing the divine plan or stalling their karmic progress or whatever. The wealthy castes would walk past beggers and lepers and feel justified to spit at them and smack at them with their riding crops, believing that these people are specifically being punished, and that any sympathy for them is wrong-headed, as they deserve their miserable lives and, indeed, making their lives even more miserable could be seen as *helping* them advance their station, or doing the gods will of punishing them for their misdeeds in prior lives! The further this is taken, the more evil it gets. If the society maintains that living people must advance their spiritual evolution through physical abuse or even follows a 'moral suasion' philosophy, it's well into evil.
[Moral suasion being the practice of torturing members of other faiths until they accepted one's god as their savior, and then immediately killing them so that they couldn't 'backslide into their heathen ways,' thereby 'assuring the salvation of their souls.']
If these sorts of beliefs are backed up by the metaphysical rules of the setting, then an evil society could grow quite powerful. For example, if a worshipper of Loviatar could beat a worshippers of Selune until he 'repents' and swears allegiance to Loviatar, and the torturer then murders him and Loviatar actually gains that persons soul, then the evil gods are going to very much encourage that sort of 'coercive conversion.' The evil gods might choose to reward followers for this sort of deed, perhaps with a single use of a divine spell of a level appropriate to the level / HD of the 'convert.' Alternately, the rewards might be less god-to-mortal and more political and status-related, with those providing the greatest numbers and qualities of converts gaining recognition and status within the church-run bureacracy. If the church doesn't actually run the government, the rewards could be as simple as 'association benefits,' like reduced costs for divine magic at any temple of the appropriate god and 'credits' that can be redeemed for mundane services (cheapest), spellcasting (cheaper by far than normal purchasing of spellcasting) and / or magic items (cheapie stuff like potions and scrolls, mostly). With even these lesser motivations, merchants and nobles and townsfolk alike might make an attempt at 'moral suasion' at some point, to get cheaper access to Remove Disease or perhaps store up 'church credit' against an anticipated sudden need for a Raise Dead...
The Book of Vile Darkness has a bunch of ways in which acts of sacrifice or extractions of pain can be utilized to gain mechanical benefits. Allowing any of these sub-system radically increases the chances that cabals of amoral and selfish people would 'get ahead' by taking advantage of these sources of power. Limiting one of these systems to a special technique only known to certain groups would create a power imbalance. Example: The Church of Loviatar develops the technique to extract Liquid Pain. They can now enchant items at an increased rate compared to other churches (or arcane casters), which puts them in the enviable position to undercut other markets, amass cash and influence, and attract the admiring eye of likewise amoral arcanists, willing to sidle up to the Paingiver to be able to likewise capitalize on their secrets of power...
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