Hawk's Talon vs Spikes of the Manticore

[Ganadai]

Forked from: Grading At-Will Powers

Statistically, the attack vs damage point is always at 10...

When your average damage > 10; +1 attack > +1 damage
When your average damage > 10; +2 attack > +2 damage

...and so forth.

When your average damage > 11; +2 attack > (+1 atk, +1 dam)

Is this correct?

Hawk’s Talon has a +4 (Wis Mod) )attack bonus (+6 if the target has cover or concealment) (+8 if the target has cover and concealment) and an average damage of 18.
Spikes of the Manticore has two attacks. The first with an average damage of 18 and the second with an average damage of 12.5 for a final average of 15.25

Assuming you hit 50% of the time, gaining a second attack increases your odds of hitting by 25% which is equivalent to a +5 attack bonus.

If the target has no cover or concealment, Hawks Talon would provide -1 attack and +2.75 damage compared to Spikes of the Manticore.

So, according to Torchlyte's chart...
Hawk's Talon is better than Spikes of the Manticore even when the target doesn't have cover or concealment?

 

[ac_noj]

Oh no you did that ALL wrong. Using the same assuptions that you've made (+7 to damage, 50% hit chance, 1D10 damage weapon) it's:

18 damage average for Hawk’s Talon at 70% chance to hit.
2 x 15.25 damage average for Spikes of the Manticore at 50% chance to hit.

So...
Hawk’s Talon = 12.6 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 15.25 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 12.2 DPR against a target with cover or concealment
Spikes of the Manticore = 9.15 DPR against a target with cover and concealment

 

[Branduil]

Is the +7 to damage from Dex(+4), Weapon Focus(+1), and magic enhancement(+2)?

 

[Ganadai]

Is the +7 to damage from Dex(+4), Weapon Focus(+1), and magic enhancement(+2)?

Dex(+5), and magic enhancement(+2)

 

[Ganadai]

Oh no you did that ALL wrong. Using the same assuptions that you've made (+7 to damage, 50% hit chance, 1D10 damage weapon) it's:

18 damage average for Hawk’s Talon at 70% chance to hit.
2 x 15.25 damage average for Spikes of the Manticore at 50% chance to hit.

So...
Hawk’s Talon = 12.6 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 15.25 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 12.2 DPR against a target with cover or concealment
Spikes of the Manticore = 9.15 DPR against a target with cover and concealment

Two attacks at 50% each does not equal 100% chance to hit, it's equivalent to 75% right?

so...
Hawk’s Talon = 12.6 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 11.4375 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 9.9125 DPR (target with cover or concealment)
Spikes of the Manticore = 8.3875 DPR (target with cover and concealment)

 

[Branduil]

Dex(+5), and magic enhancement(+2)

It seems highly likely to me the Ranger will have weapon focus.

You also need to factor in Hunter's Quarry which, again, will likely be a d8 because of Lethal Hunter.

Two attacks at 50% each does not equal 100% chance to hit, it's equivalent to 75% right?

so...
Hawk’s Talon = 12.6 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 11.4375 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 9.9125 DPR (target with cover or concealment)
Spikes of the Manticore = 8.3875 DPR (target with cover and concealment)

The hit chance of one attack has no effect on the other. Multiply the chance of one attack hitting by the average damage roll to get the average damage for that attack. Then do the same with the other attack and add them together.

The 75% DOES hold true for Hunter's Quarry though. That's because you only need one attack to hit in order for it to work, it doesn't matter which one.

 

[Branduil]

Here's what I got when calculating with Weapon Focus, Lethal Hunter, and Hunter's Quarry included:

Hawk's Talon = 16.45 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 19.63 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 15.88 DPR (target with cover or concealment)
Spikes of the Manticore = 12.05 DPR (target with cover and concealment)

HT seems kind of weak unless you're constantly fighting concealed enemies.

 

[Ganadai]

It seems highly likely to me the Ranger will have weapon focus.

You also need to factor in Hunter's Quarry which, again, will likely be a d8 because of Lethal Hunter.

I was thinking about it in terms of my ranger which I planned out to level 30, and I wasn't planning on ever taking either of those feats, but if I did it would change to:
Hawk’s Talon = 16.45 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 14.34375 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 12.43125 DPR (target with cover or concealment)
Spikes of the Manticore = 10.51875 DPR (target with cover and concealment)

The hit chance of one attack has no effect on the other. Multiply the chance of one attack hitting by the average damage roll to get the average damage for that attack. Then do the same with the other attack and add them together.

The 75% DOES hold true for Hunter's Quarry though. That's because you only need one attack to hit in order for it to work, it doesn't matter which one.

If you flip two coins there is not a 100% probability that one will land on heads. Besides, you always fail on a 1 so it can never go above 95% unless you decided to also factor in elvish precision.

 

[Branduil]

I was thinking about it in terms of my ranger which I planned out to level 30, and I wasn't planning on ever taking either of those feats, but if I did it would change to:
Hawk’s Talon = 16.45 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 14.34375 DPR
Spikes of the Manticore = 12.43125 DPR (target with cover or concealment)
Spikes of the Manticore = 10.51875 DPR (target with cover and concealment)

How are you getting that DPR for SOTM? And out of curiosity, what feats are so awesome that you don't have enough for Weapon Focus or Lethal Hunter?

If you flip two coins there is not a 100% probability that one will land on heads. Besides, you always fail on a 1 so it can never go above 95% unless you decided to also factor in elvish precision.

We're not calculating percentage, we're calculating average damage.

Let's say I can flip one coin in a round. It'll land on heads 0.5 times per round, on average. Now let's bump that to two coins per round. On average, it will land on heads once per round. This is not the same thing as a 100% chance. There's a 75% chance I will get at least one heads each round, but on average I will still get one heads per round. Make sense?

 

[Ganadai]

How are you getting that DPR for SOTM? And out of curiosity, what feats are so awesome that you don't have enough for Weapon Focus or Lethal Hunter?

Initiate of the Faith, Skill Training (Thievery), Quick Draw, Elven Precision, Alertness, Adept Power (Blade Barrier), Acolyte Power(Cure Serious)

Weapon Focus and Lethal Hunter are good at level 1, but they don't scale, so they just become more and more useless as you level. Actually, Leather Hunter Scales with Hunters Quarry so it might be worth taking.

We're not calculating percentage, we're calculating average damage.

Let's say I can flip one coin in a round. It'll land on heads 0.5 times per round, on average. Now let's bump that to two coins per round. On average, it will land on heads once per round. This is not the same thing as a 100% chance. There's a 75% chance I will get at least one heads each round, but on average I will still get one heads per round. Make sense?

OK, so you're calculating the attacks independently like this:
Spikes of the Manticore = (11+5+2+1)*.5 + (5.5+5+2+1)*.5 + 4.5*.75 = 19.625

That makes sense.

I was taking the average of both attacks and multiplying it by .75
Spikes of the Manticore = ((11+5+2+1+5.5+5+2+1)/2 + 4.5)*.75 = 15.5625