Hedge Wizard

Cheiromancer said:
Skills are tricky. I mostly thought of what I would want NPC occultists to be able to do, and not do. For instance, I would want them to be able to spy on people, and impersonate people (or at least pretend to be of classes/professions other than what they were). So hide, move silently and disguise should all be class skills. But I want PCs to be able to infiltrate cult gatherings, maybe in disguise, without being automatically detected by someone present, so I didn't want spot or listen to be class skills. I wondered about including sense motive, but I thought that if the occultists didn't have it, it would guarantee that PCs would be able to lead them around by the nose, and I didn't want that.

That was my thought too. Disable device is a pretty rare skill, only for rogues on the core classes. Even if they had a need to open locked doors etc... how much time would they spend with various devices. It made sense for a thief in the old rules but whats the chance here.
Forgery might at least be something they can practice more reasonably.

Cheiromancer said:
With respect to diplomacy, I think that might be a little too open and above board. Occultists get what they want in covert and devious ways, not in straightforward negotiating. So I see occultists as tending to use deception (bluff) rather than diplomacy. I thought about including Intimidate as a class skill as well, but decided to leave that to the fighters, barbarians and true rogues. Forgery would fit, but that is exclusive to rogues; if a character wants to have a knack for it that's fine, but I won't make it a class skill.

My thoughts were that unless the cult was very public and powerful diplomacy would actually help them stay hidden and conceal their beliefs. I think of a character like the Scarlet Pimpernel who uses court niceties to hide their true beliefs while being able to haunt the corridors of power.


Cheiromancer said:
And of course with only 4 skill points per level I don't want to swamp them with options. I think the current list should allow all kinds of interesting possibilities and combos to be implemented, but the variety is not *too* broad. Comparable to that of a monk, I'd say. Anyways, if a particular skill is key to the concept of an occultist character, then a knack should be a good way of fulfilling it.


That sounds like a reasonable limitation.

Your UR Priest limitations might be hampering you. It might be simpler just to make the class reflect your will and offer characters the prestige class without some of the prereqs or lower the prereqs for your world.

AEG has a really cool spellcasting fighter in 'Mercenaries' called the Myrmidon. They restrict the spells to only one spell list prepared like wizards. The catch is that all the spells are reworked to be cast in armor - no armor check. I think the class was released in a free preview.

Sigurd
 
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Cheiromancer said:
Mechanical considerations constrain me; I want this class to feed into the Ur-Priest. Ur-Priest has a +3 fort and +3 Will pre-requisite. So the Fort and Will saves have to stay good. For the same reason it needs Bluff, spellcraft and several knowledges as class skills. . .

remember that not all PrC's can be entered at the same level. for example the Imperial Crossbowman can be entered at 2nd level while you will be level 10 before you even qualify for the true necromancer.

Cheiromancer said:
Now, good fort saves are part of a package- it fits thematically with the presence of mettle and the (high level) immunity to poisons and disease. In the same way a good will save goes with significant spellcasting ability, and a good reflex save goes with light armor and abilities like evasion. . .

Again 3 favored saves and spell abilities with rogue abilities I feel is unbalanced thats why I recomend that you pick 2 favored saves and some rogue skills but not rogue special abilities (except maby sneek attack which has a history of getting assimilated into other classes)

Cheiromancer said:
You think they should start casting spells at first level, but with a sorcerer or bard progression? Do you think they are too weak at low levels, then, without spellcasting?

as I said they should have a level cap on thier spell progression. you want to use this class in place or a cleric or adept. it should be different then them but not better. as you plan to use it as a stepping stone to the Ur-Priest PrC what does it matter if they enter the Ur priesthood a level or 2 later (because of the save) or allow the players/npc's to take one of the 3 save boosting feats like great fortitude so that the prerecs of the Ur priest can be met. likewise a spell cap effects those that do NOT become Ur - Priests.
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Cheiromancer said:
An occultist will have more intelligence than a rogue . . .
here totally disagree with you. I have played a lot of rogues and as the skill magnets who really need 14-15 skills per level not 8 I tend to place my highest stat on INT and the 2nd highest on DEX. my rogues all tend to have 3-5 times the skills of any other party member and that is the strongest ascet of the rogue IMO.

the best advice I can give you is to try to build this as a stand alone class which happens to merge well with the Ur Priest, but doesnt nessicarilly have to go into that calling.
 

Ur-Priest can be entered after 5 levels. Cleric 4/Rogue 1 will do it, as will Wizard 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 3, etc.. It wouldn't be the end of the world if it took a 6th level Occultist to do it, but 9th level is too late. And that's what a poor Fort Save would entail... and a wizard could do it by then (taking bluff as CC).

And, unfortunately, feats don't increase your base fort save, and so don't help meet the Ur-Priest's pre-requisites.

Senackranib said:
Again 3 favored saves and spell abilities with rogue abilities I feel is unbalanced thats why I recomend that you pick 2 favored saves and some rogue skills but not rogue special abilities (except maby sneek attack which has a history of getting assimilated into other classes)

I'll think about it- but it seems to me that the class is a little weak at the first few levels (compared to the rogue). After 4th level it looks like a rogue/wizard multiclass- and multiclassing with spellcasters is weaker than going with a single class. That's ok, since you have to count the ability to qualify for prestige classes to be a strength, but I estimate that it is only when it is in the teens that it starts to hold its own.

But at level 10+ you have to compare the occultist to a wizard. Being 3 levels behind a wizard is a lot. I really doubt if the skill points and the extra hit points make up for it. The occultist is a wizard who lacks bonus feats and a whole school of magic, and who has been forced to multiclass with 3 levels of rogue. It takes a fair number of special perks to make that up.

For instance, look at a rogue 3/wizard 5/arcane trickster 10 and compare it to an 18th level occultist. Similar spellcasting, but the wizard has 2 more feats (1st and 5th level), and the occultist has more hit points. But improved toughness (+1 hp/level) is a feat, so that is one- the occultist has a better familiar, but how much is an extra banned school worth? The AT has saves of +5 +11 +12 (total 28) while the occultist has saves of +11 +11 +11 (total 33). So that's +5 more than the arcane trickster. That's about the equivalent of two feats or so? (one +1 to all saves, one +2 to one save). Special abilities- hmmm. Don't really know how to compare them. The arcane trickster has +7d6 sneak attack damage, and can declare an impromptu sneak attack 2/day, and ranged legerdemain 3/day. How does that compare with +3d6, improved evasion, (improved) uncanny dodge and spell resistance?

Skill points- before int bonuses, the AT will get 6x8 + 5x2 + 10x4 = 98 skill points. The occultist will have 21x4 = 84. Even if the decipher script pre-requisite was a waste for the AT, the AT is still ahead by a little.

I don't know, but I have trouble seeing how the occultist is really stronger than an arcane trickster. I could tone down some of the abilities- reduce spell resistance to level+5, replace improved evasion with immunity to disease, (the 19th level ability would be immunity to poison), but I don't think that capping the spell level at 6th would be appropriate.
 
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you cannot compair your proposed class to either rogue, wizard or any other core class on a 1 for 1 basis. you must look at how it stacks up with all the core classes. you also cannot compair to to a PrC since it has no prerecs and can be entered freely. if the poor fort save is the problem for you then drop the favored ref or wil save. really now no one should be good at everything -

as I said thats one of the areas I have problems with in reguards to the monk.
remember this class is not the only path to what is essentially a cleric PrC. and you want to get there as a non cleric. so your proposed class cant have all the benifits of the other classes or you will see all of your players just take that.

you seem stuck on the fact that these guys are spellcasters 3 levels lower so they are weaker then the mage. with the favored saves, better hit points and more skills this is not so. also with no level cap they will rival wizards/sorcs and clerics for spells at higher level. consider the spell casting abilities or the bard, paladin and ranger, they will never rival those of the core casting classes and rightly so. they gain other abilities that off set the higher level spells/ broader spell lists/ and number of spells per day.

the simplest solution is to either change the house rules to allow the spending of feats to improve the base save which btw doesnt cause any serious problems. or make a varient Ur Priest with slightly modified req's.
 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Though perhaps it makes sense to agree on what exactly we disagree on:

I regard the monk as canonical, so saying that the monk shouldn't have three good saves- that makes no sense to me. If your intuition tells you the monk is unbalanced, I think that is a sign that your intuition is off-base. So that is an area of dispute that will remain unresolved between us.

Since we are in house rules territory, I suppose I could change how pre-reqs are satisfied, or tinker with the ur-priest works, or whatever. But I am choosing to design a base class instead, and leave the other bits constant. Yeah, it's arbitrary, but I've decided that I'm not designing a PrCl, I'm making a base class. Those are my self-imposed restraints.

I don't think the design procedure I'm using is something we've really discussed, though. The first approximation to my new base class is a mixture of core classes; rogue and wizard, with a splash of ranger. The second approximation smooths out the saves and BAB and hit dice, swaps out a few abilities, and extrapolates the first few hit dice to higher levels. The third approximation fine tunes this.

Now there might be some deep reason why this approach will never work. And there are ways in which I have not applied this procedure consistently; otherwise I would have a class that works like a Wizard 8/Rogue 8/Ranger 4, instead of what I have. But that isn't the direction of your comments, so the point is moot.

Comparing a new base class to all the core classes and not just the similar ones; I don't understand how your position could be correct. Suppose the PHB didn't have a barbarian. None at all. But suppose someone on the message board decided to design a "savage warrior"- not a fighter, ranger or paladin, but something different. Would you really have to compare this new class to rogue, wizard, druid etc. to decide whether or not it was balanced? I can't see how you would compare a barbarian and a sorcerer directly. I think you would just compare it to the fighting classes, and maybe not all of them.

And I cannot understand why you cannot compare a base class to a prestige class. Surely to understand if Mystic Theurge is balanced you have to compare it to single classed clerics and wizards, wouldn't you? And if someone were to design a "universal spellcaster" who cast divine and arcane spells, wouldn't you want to compare it to Mystic Theurge? You have to consider the "wasted" feats and skill points- that's a given. But to say that base classes and prestige classes are incomparable? I just can't accept that.

And the (level-3) thing. The character level you get access to a spell level is important. A 5th level wizard can cast 3rd level spells. A 5th level sorcerer can't. That is a significant difference. Even if it is only a 1 level difference, it is still important. With the occultist the difference is 3 levels. That is a lot, and I think you undervalue its importance. Maybe that's something we will continue to disagree on. I admit I don't have a lot of experience with higher level gaming. If we confined our discussion to the first 10 levels, would we be in agreement about whether the spellcasting is appropriate?

Anyways, thanks for your feedback. Even if I don't agree with you, your comments have been helpful and thought-provoking.
 

version 3

Considerably weakened at higher levels; dropped improved evasion and immunity to disease and poison. SR is reduced to level+5, and pushed right to the end, to reward those who take all 20 levels. [edit]dropped disable device- only the rogue has it among the core classes, let's keep it hard to get.[/edit]

The Occultist

Abilities: Intelligence powers an occultist’s spells, and enhances his skills. Constitution and dexterity are most important for sheer survivability.
Alignment: any non-good
Hit dice: d6
Armor and Weapons: light armor, no shield, simple weapons
Attacks: medium BAB (like a rogue)
Saves: all good (like a monk)

Skill points: 4 + Int modifier
Class skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (any), Move Silently, Open Locks, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft.

Key ability for spells: Intelligence.

Code:
[color=silver]

Level	
1	sneak attack +1d6, trap sense
2	knack
3	evasion
4	familiar, spellcasting (level-3)
5	mettle
6	
7	uncanny dodge
8	
9	sneak attack +2d6
10	
11	
12	
13	improved uncanny dodge
14	
15	
16	
17	sneak attack +3d6
18	
19	
20	spell resistance 25[/color]


Special Abilities:

Knack (Ex): A second level occultist gains insight either into the use of a weapon or a skill in which he has no skill ranks. If a weapon is chosen, the occultist gains Weapon Focus with that weapon. If a skill has been chosen, the occultist is henceforth treated to have a number of ranks in that skill equal to his class level plus his intelligence bonus (if any). A knack in a skill counts for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for a feat or prestige class. The occultist loses all benefits of a knack if he ever buys ranks in the chosen skill.

Sneak attack, trap sense, evasion and (improved) uncanny dodge are as the rogue abilities. With respect to improved uncanny dodge, a rogue whose level is higher than the occultist may flank him normally.

Mettle is like evasion, only for fort and will saves- it is the hex blade's 3rd level ability (in Complete Warrior), and spell resistance is like the monk ability, although it doesn't scale with level.

The occultist's familiar and spellcasting is much the same as for a standard wizard 3 levels lower, except that an occultist must give up a school of magic (as a specialist wizard does) without gaining any of the benefits of specialization. An occultist may give up any school of magic except for divination. An occultist prepares his spells using a spellbook, just as a standard wizard does. Occultists suffer a chance of arcane spell failure if they wear armor when casting spells; armor is mostly for low level occultists.

Ex-occultists: There is something a little off about the occultist’s approach to the world, one which does not appeal to good characters. An occultist who becomes good retains all class abilities, but cannot gain further levels as an occultist.

Role: Many occultists are failures in some other field of endeavor; they are the wizard’s apprentice who cannot learn any spells, the novice cleric whose faith is too weak, or the would-be bard who does not have the heart for the profession. It is not that the occultist’s talent is lacking; but it is hidden too deeply for the standard training of a character class to unlock. Resentment over this early failure tends to embitter the character, though they may put on a cheerful face.

Other occultists are scholars (experts) who feel that they have hidden talents waiting to be discovered; talents which will bring them wealth and power. They pore over old tomes and practice exotic meditation techniques in order for these powers to be uncovered. Occultists will often form secret societies in which their discoveries can be shared; occultists are natural conspirators, and are well suited to skullduggery. Still other occultists are bored aristocrats who seek the thrill of secret knowledge and the reassurance of a group of fellow strivers.

And finally, there are the occultists who are raised and trained as such; typically such occultists are also cultists of one kind or another. These cults rarely worship true deities, but may be on quite friendly terms with various fiends.

Whatever their background, occultists are convinced that there is a secret to success, and that this secret is within their grasp. Though sometimes dismissed as charlatans, dillettantes and con artists, occultists sometimes stumble onto the secrets of real magic; rarely, however, do they achieve the power of standard wizards. For this reason spell-casting occultists tend to resent wizards and sorcerers, and sometimes clerics as well. This animosity is usually kept well hidden.

The benefits of the slow path to power are not inconsiderable. Occultists are more aware of themselves and their world, and thus are harder to assail either physically, mentally, or spiritually. The most obvious of an occultist's awakened talents is arcane spellcasting. But occultists will also have a skill or weapon with which they exhibit unusual skill; this is their "knack." Even occultists who do not have a weapon knack seem unusually competent with a dagger or club; especially when they strike from surprise or from behind. Conversely, an occultist who has a weapon knack is more skilled than a wizard of equal intelligence.

Multiclassing: Occultists can (with a knack for disable device) easily become arcane tricksters, and those with blacker hearts are well-suited to become assassins or ur-priests.
 
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