Heighten Spell + another Metamagic feat

[Thanee]

There is also a reference to a sage reply (page 24 or 25 I think it was).

Havn't looked it up, tho.

EDIT: There it is, posted on page 24 by The_Ditto at 04-22-04 02:18 PM.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dyntheos]

The same could be said of your position.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, a lot can be said.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dyntheos]

The better reference is on page 25 where the sage clarifies the position.

At this time I still disagree, I think the wording is screwed, and therefore open to interpretation, but the sage apparently is an official word, so I will bow to that ruling, and use heighten as a pure additive, meaning in this example the burning hands is in fact 7th level.

*tips hat

 

[Thanee]

Ah, havn't read any further there... will look it up, tho.

EDIT: Done. Doesn't really add much in terms of actual explanation, tho...

I think noone will argue, that the wording is kinda screwed. They could have very easily used the same convention as with the other feats (that is, using a direct change of spell level (i.e. (in short) +1 spell level (cost) adds +1 effective spell level (effect), can be applied multiple times (variability)), instead of the indirect one they use with Heighten) and still keep it variable. Heighten is also one of the only feats that, because of that wording, do not work with Improved Metamagic. Might be intentional, tho. Who knows.

Please re-read this part carefully, it includes the actual rule quotes as well:

If you do it your way... adding Maximize to burning hands to get to 4th level, then add Heighten to raise the effective level to 4th without changing the spell level, neglects the fact, that metamagic feats (including their costs) are cumulative. "Changes to its (the spell's) level are cumulative." Heighten, applied to burning hands, to raise the effective level to 4th also raises the spell level to 4th. "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal... The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." Those +3 spell levels are omitted in your way of thinking. This is not possible, since the rule I quoted absolutely clearly states, that the changes to the spell's level are cumulative and thus are added together, resulting in 7th level with Maximize applied as well (before or after Heighten makes no difference).

What you are doing (IMHO) is picking out this part: "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal." and "Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.", and apply it to a heightened maximized spell, altho it only talks about Heighten Spell, thereby neglecting this part from the very important rule about multiple metamagic feats: "Changes to its (the spell's) level are cumulative." - Heighten Spell states, that the spell uses up a higher spell level: "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal... The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." This is a cost, which is neglected in your way of thinking, altho the rules quite clearly state, that changes to the spell level (and indirect changes are also changes) are cumulative.

Bye
Thanee

 

[rushlight]

Alright, I suppose I stumbled on an interesting question...

Anyway, the Sage's answer is official, I suppose. But it still isn't really satisfying. For some reason, I can't see a Maximized Burning Hands Heightened to 6th level as the equal to Meteor Swarm. A spell with a base save of 16 which does 20 points of damage just shouldn't be a 9th level spell.

So, at this point I suppose I'll ignore the "official" rule and make it a houserule. In this case, the "official" rule is idiotic.

In the interest of entertainment, does anyone find a balance issue with allowing Heighten to stack with another metamagic feat? Anyone really think that my above example would be way too powerful if you allowed a Maximized Burning Hands Heightened to 6th level to stay in a 6th level slot, rather than a 9th level slot?

 

[Liquidsabre]

Anyway, the Sage's answer is official, I suppose. But it still isn't really satisfying. For some reason, I can't see a Maximized Burning Hands Heightened to 6th level as the equal to Meteor Swarm. A spell with a base save of 16 which does 20 points of damage just shouldn't be a 9th level spell.

For the most part, many don't find metamagic'd spells equal or better than other spells of equivalent level. Though special cases exist where this is the case. The lack-luster usefulness of many of the metamagic feats is the reason my two game groups switched to UA:Spontaneous Metamagic!

The result was a resounding: "Finally, a reason to take (and use) metamagic feats!"

 

[Thanee]

For some reason, I can't see a Maximized Burning Hands Heightened to 6th level as the equal to Meteor Swarm. A spell with a base save of 16 which does 20 points of damage just shouldn't be a 9th level spell.

Heh. Even your way... a heightened maximized burning hands, which is a 4th level spell... that spell is still useless crap... might be the very suboptimal use of Heighten Spell in this example more than the Heighten Spell feat itself?

In the interest of entertainment, does anyone find a balance issue with allowing Heighten to stack with another metamagic feat? Anyone really think that my above example would be way too powerful if you allowed a Maximized Burning Hands Heightened to 6th level to stay in a 6th level slot, rather than a 9th level slot?

Hmm... one problem is, that you basically get the effect of one of the feats for free then.

A Heightened hold person only increases save DC.
A Heightened Fortified Extended hold person also increases duration and the ability to pierce spell resistance at no cost other than having to learn multiple feats, but those don't stack for free in any other combination, so I really don't see why heighten should stand out here.

In general... metamagic feats are nice, but normally a metamagicked spell is not better or even equal to a spell of the new spell level. In some cases, yes, but not normally.

Your burning hands example is a very extreme example of using metamagic in a very suboptimal way, really. There are plenty possibilities to make good use of them even using the official rules.

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

Your burning hands example is a very extreme example of using metamagic in a very suboptimal way, really. There are plenty possibilities to make good use of them even using the official rules.

I agree with Thanee - see, I do agree with you sometimes!
No one in their right mind would heighten a Maximised Burning Hands anyway, unless maybe they were some weird type of non-combatant Sorcerer NPC and it was their only offensive spell.

 

[apsuman]

Alright, I suppose I stumbled on an interesting question...

Anyway, the Sage's answer is official, I suppose. But it still isn't really satisfying. For some reason, I can't see a Maximized Burning Hands Heightened to 6th level as the equal to Meteor Swarm. A spell with a base save of 16 which does 20 points of damage just shouldn't be a 9th level spell.

You are right, it does not. But I think the flaw is that burning hands is not that great a spell in the first place. Also, IMHO, maximize is really not that great a feat, it costs too much. And finally, the more levels (slots) you metamagic a spell the more marginally ineffective the metamagic becomes. I think it is the law of diminishing returns on increasing the slot level of a spell.


Heighten is great to increase saves. Maximize is great to guarantee spell results. The two just do not work well together. Empower and Maximize work better together. A heightened charm person is always a good spell against a fighter (by a same level wiz/sor). A maxed fireball is always a good spell against a bunch of mooks.

So, for comparison's sake, here's what a 6th level spell slot can "buy" you.

An empowered maximized burning hands would take up a 6th level slot and do 20+(5d4/2) damage or on average 32.5 save for half.

An empowered maximized shocking grasp would take up a 6th level slot and do 30 + (5d6/2) or on average 47.5 no save but you must hit.

Freezing sphere is a 6th level spell and it would damage (in a 10 foot radius) all creatures for d6/level, assuming level 12 wiz/sor casting you get 42 damage, save for half, no roll to hit.

An empowered maximized cure light wounds would take a 6th level slot and would cure 8+5 + (d8+5)/2 or 17.25 on average.

An empowered maximized Produce Flame (by a 12th level druid) would allow him to throw flames 12 times for (on average) 6+5 + (d6+5)/2 or 15.25 damage each time for a grand total of 183. Of couse this would be as 12 different attacks.

Or, an empowered maximized Produce Flame (by a 12th level druid) would allow him to attack in melee for 12 minutes or 120 rounds of attacks at 2 attacks per round or for 240 attacks and once again an attack would do on average 15.25 or a grand total of 3660 (if all attack hit). Of course this means that he forgoes all other melee attacks.