Helm of Opposite Alignment ... Think "A Clockwork Orange"

Re: Umbran

I did mention my assumption that the purpose of the helm was, in fact, temporal. I don't think that temporal matter are always separate from religious ones: I merely asked you to consider the case if it were. As for the warden who came up with the Helm Project, he would claim he's doing the same job he always was, only more quickly and with demonstrable certainty to anyone who cried foul at his religious tampering.

And for another wrinkle: I think the Good gods would jump at the chance to convert all these high-profile prisoners, meanwhile their former churches would fight like hell against this type of strong-armed conversion. So this situation would be very possible within an theocracy where the High Priests of other religions were hunted down and, if not converted, then forcibly de-clericed.
 
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Felix said:
I'm not going to touch the magical abilities to divine innocence, but rather suggest that the use of the Helm be judicious: Evil people (or Chaotic, or Good) are targeted specifically because of their alignment. It would be much easier to weed out Good prisoners who may or may not be innocent, and simply not Helm them.

Right, of course they are going to make an effort not to alter the "Good" people, but people make mistakes. Through negligence (or malice) a good man is turned into an evil one. The whole idea of the plot point is that it does not happen often, but when it does its one big "oops".
 

It seems to me that it's a lot more likely that they'd just execute them.

I don't think there's quite the same "sanctity of life" issue and compunction against killing in a typical fantasy setting as we have nowadays. Hell, think back even as recently as the days of the Wild West. Cattle rustlers were hung and duels to the death were perfectly acceptable.

The biggest issue I see with this plan is asking why they'd keep someone who's evil enough to warrant the treatment alive in the first place. I see jail more as a place for civil infractions, like not paying your taxes or getting drunk and running around the town square naked at noon. Even someone who stole a loaf of bread would probably have his hands cut off.

I could really only see this being used in a few very specific situations.

1: The evildoer is unkillable, for whatever reason. A lich, a powerful demon, or just some wizard who's made himself immortal.

2: Killing him/her would cause more problems than it would solve. Bastard child of a king, brother of a neighboring country's diplomat, etc.

3: It's someone who would be very desirable to have on your side. An evil, but powerful wizard would make a great ally.

And these cases would be rare enough to justify shelling out 4 grand on a helm.
 

I had a player in an older addition of the game bring up a similar dilemma about using the Helm to convert prisoners of war. My (via NPC cleric) reply was that the afterlife depended on choices made while under free will. The helm changed behavior, but removed the underlying core of free will and thus condemned the victims to a life of good behavior without the possibility of redemption.

The BBEG they took it from had no such moral dilemma.
 

Umbran said:
And, of course, the question works both ways. Why don't the bad guys go around making new villains with such helms?
Probably because bad guys don't make reliable allies for other bad guys, and, depending on the level of their "badness" are probably harder to manipulate or prey upon than a bunch of good people.

Good question, though - definitely food for thought!
 

I think it may come down to notions of whether the purpose of punishment is to rehabillitate the criminal or obtain justice.

The problem with this form of rehabilitation is that the victim may not percieve it as just. You've had loved ones raped and murdered, you've had property you worked hard to obtain stolen or destroyed, you've suffered wrong. And, society proposes to place nothing in the balance against the wrong you've suffered. You've changed the persons mind, but he's still the same person that committed the crime.

Another problem with this form of rehabilitation is that it carries no cost. It's sort of the opposite of deterance. Not only do you not suffer the consequences of having committed a crime, but you recieve a cheap redemption right down to the spiritual level. One can easily imagine a person saying to themselves, "Why don't I engage in evil? Then I will have had my revenge and afterwards, my crime will be expunged by the simple expediency of putting on a helmet and coming out clean again." Not punishing a wrong-doer may be percieved by the larger society as a failure of the social contract, with the result that such non-punishment punishments lead to a rash of vengeance swearing vigilantes. These are reasons lawful socities might shun such an action.

Another potential problem is that it might not turn out to be that effacious once you put it in practice if you don't also change the circumstances of the person. What is to say that time won't win out, and in the long run the same underlying causes that decayed the soul won't decay it again. How long will the revulsion at his former self last, if the same resentments, jealousies, and emotions return? You changed the motives, but not the wisdom. You changed the person, but not the circumstances. Perhaps it has been tried before and discovered not to work, but instead that five or ten years down the line you simply have rapists and murderers out in society who commit thier crimes again. How likely is society to tolerate the expense and risk, if even one of this freed murderers commits the same crime?

Another problem is that you've violated the free will of the invididual - 'Clock Work Orange' indeed. A lawful society might get caught up in the fact that the penalty is not just because he did not pay for his crime, but a chaotic society might consider that it is inherently unjust to remove the beings free will regardless of the intention in doing so. A chaotic society might also eschew this type of rehabilation for the same reason that they would avoid the death penalty - they may think that the consequences of depriving an innocent of his free will are too terrible to consider and too irreversible and therefore err on the side of caution. A chaotic society, with its notion of internal belief and personal intent, might even see such an act as depriving the criminal of the chance to repent of thier crime of thier own free will, and thus of the one chance that they have of true redemption. Perhaps its too easy to assume that the crime is expunged because the motives have changed. Perhaps you've created the horror of an damned soul which by virtue of its changed heart can percieve its inescapable damnation, but cannot do anything about it.

Another problem is it may be that the majority of criminals aren't evil, but neutrals who found themselves at the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong state of mind and who then opted for doing evil as the easier or seemingly more fulfilling path. You might find yourself with alot of murderers you had killed in a moment of passion, who would remain basically the same person after the helm came off thier head.
 
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Celebrim said:
I think it may come down to notions of whether the purpose of punishment is to rehabillitate the criminal or obtain justice.
Certainly. Suppose that the purpose of the Helm is strictly to protect society from Evil men, and has nothing to do with justice; what would you do to them before they were Helmed to claim that justice had been done? 100 lashes for rape and then Helming? 200 lashes for murder and then Helming? The post-Helm prisoner would know that the punishment was done to an Evil man, and that he is now a Good man, and wishes to stay that way. So he simply won't backslide because he wants to stay Good. He may be conflicted, but he'll be Good while being so.

The problem with this form of rehabilitation is that the victim may not percieve it as just. You've had loved ones raped and murdered, you've had property you worked hard to obtain stolen or destroyed, you've suffered wrong. And, society proposes to place nothing in the balance against the wrong you've suffered. You've changed the persons mind, but he's still the same person that committed the crime.
So what would you do to him to avenge the victims? Since that's what you're talking about.

Another problem with this form of rehabilitation is that it carries no cost. It's sort of the opposite of deterance. Not only do you not suffer the consequences of having committed a crime, but you recieve a cheap redemption right down to the spiritual level. One can easily imagine a person saying to themselves, "Why don't I engage in evil? Then I will have had my revenge and afterwards, my crime will be expunged by the simple expediency of putting on a helmet and coming out clean again." Not punishing a wrong-doer may be percieved by the larger society as a failure of the social contract, with the result that such non-punishment punishments lead to a rash of vengeance swearing vigilantes. These are reasons lawful socities might shun such an action.
This problem only exists with the premisies that people don't regard having their free will ripped from them as a cost, and also that Helming is the only thing that happens to them. If they are incarcerated for the normal length of their sentence, found to be incorrigible, Helmed and then released, would this problem still exist?

Another potential problem is that it might not turn out to be that effacious once you put it in practice if you don't also change the circumstances of the person.
If you assume that the environment has more effect upon the individual than the individual has upon the environment he places himself in, your potential problem has merit.

A chaotic society might also eschew this type of rehabilation for the same reason that they would avoid the death penalty - they may think that the consequences of depriving an innocent of his free will are too terrible to consider and too irreversible and therefore err on the side of caution.
While at the same time a Chaotic Good group given the opportunity to kidnap and Helm the leader of a tyrannical and Evil government may see the Helm as an efficient and relatively bloodless way of destabilizing a regime. They may not use it as a punishment for prisoners, but it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be useless to them.

Another problem is it may be that the majority of criminals aren't evil, but neutrals who found themselves at the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong state of mind and who then opted for doing evil as the easier or seemingly more fulfilling path. You might find yourself with alot of murderers you had killed in a moment of passion, who would remain basically the same person after the helm came off thier head.
Again. There are many litmus tests for alignment that will reveal your exact alignment. Layer them one after another and you'll have something that's extraordinarily reliable. How you use the Helm after that is up to you. If you wish to make truly Evil people Good, then you have the opportunity to do so. If you wish to make Chaotic rebels Lawful, you'll be in the same position. If you wish to target left-handed Chaotic Evil half-orcs, you may. It doesn't have to be wanton.
 

The cost could be recouped from the wealth of the evil geniuses being converted and the program should pay for itself almost immediately. Certainly, just being converted would not be punishment enough, so compensation/restitution for any known victims and funding to further the program are a given. Further, it should work in the same fashion as the conversion technique in the movie, not just a simple helmet slapped on the head followed by a saving throw. Gotta have the eyes held open and watch a parade of permanent images of kittens and the like. Brilliant thread. :D
 

I can see a lot of interesting quests geared around this helm. As a cursed item for parties to find and get boned by, it's a piece of crap and breaks character conception rules badly- but as a plot point it's totally awesome.

I especially see its use on captured fiends. You gain a powerful ally, and you don't have to worry about the whole reforming thing. If the rules don't support this, well, they should. In a universe where morality is a tangible thing, people may not have any particular problem with altering people's souls/spirits- it would be just like surgery.

In a similar vein, capturing a powerful evil mortal and reversing their alignment to stop a prophecy about their death and rise to a position of power (as an archdemon or something) would be a cool plot arc. It becomes extra awesome if he himself is aware (or becomes aware) of the prophecy. It would be cool if, on hearing the prophecy, it spurs him to complete a ritual which would allow such events to unfold.

edit: tags
 
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Neat idea! Consider it yoinked. A couple of other things to make this work a little better:

Selective use of various poisons, particularly those that effect Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, will make the subject more pliable to helm. Once in a haze, additional use of such spells as mind fog and bestow curse can reduce the saving throws even more. The subject may not remember the process at all. If it looks like he will, consider a high level modify memory, although this will show up if magic is detected for. Overall, the subject may wake up with some foggy memories, a splitting headache, and a whole new outlook on life.
 

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