HELP a Daggerspell Shaper Going Epic!

[moritheil]

Hi,

I have a Ninja/Druid/Daggerspell Shaper build. It has 17th level casting at CL 20 (thanks to Practiced Spellcaster.) I now need to take it into epic. (Actual build: Ninja 2/Druid 8/DsS 8/Div O 2)

I have one level left on Practiced Spellcaster and I have Able Learner, so there's a lot of flexibility with regard to what classes are options. Ideally I'd like something that plays to the strengths of epic levels. My feat will most likely be Epic Spellcasting, to take advantage of maxed Know (religion) and Know (nature).

I originally planned the build using Warshaper at 21st, which grants immunity to critical hits and stunning (and sneak attack) while wildshaped. However, in the meantime I got Bo9S (this campaign was on hiatus for a year or so) and I am wondering if a Swordsage level would be better for the 6th level Diamond Mind maneuvers which can be a boost to saves (important in epic.)

My overall analysis is that Warshaper offers a useful immunity but Swordsage opens up a great many options. Is this analysis accurate, and which would you pick? I would also like to hear about other classes that might be a good fit, if you know of any.

 

[moritheil]

Also, I'll happily read tips on spells to keep in mind, epic spell design suggestions, or maneuvers from Bo9S to use.

So far it's mostly Shapechange, Moment of Prescience, and Shambler. I like Elemental Swarm, with divinations to get the timing right, but those sometimes don't work . . . and I like Elemental Monolith except for the concentration clause.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, I don't know much about DSS, but I can try with some basic help, at least. Firstly, the saves thing. I'm not sure if it's needed, since Druids get two good saves already, and can just pick a high dex animal for the poor one. How do you normally fight? Because if you do alot of pouncing charges, you might be better off with Warblade or Crusader for access to WR charge maneuvers. Also, WR Tactics.

For high level spells, you've got a pretty good list. There's a level 9 in SpC that basically roots the target in the ground, giving fast healing 30, lots of immunites, and nigh impossible to budge. Could be good for an archer. In the same book, there's also a level 6 spell, Enveloping Cocoon. You can freely attach a specific list of spells to it the following round, and those entrapped DO NOT get to make the save, so it effectively becomes a reflex save (the save this spell uses) or lose. I believe one of those spells is poison (which theoreticallly could be empowered, maximized, etc...). This is nice, since most save or lose/die spells target the other two saves.

Dipping warshaper is Always a good option, though lost caster and wildshape levels hurt a little.

For cheese, I think the wording of the C Divine feat for spontaneous domain spell casting is such that you can burn any divine spell slot for one of them. Of course, it's limited to turn attempts per day, but still, pretty handy for a 1 level cleric dip. Pick domains with spells you'd like and...smile.

 

[moritheil]

Thanks for the tips! I recall the SpC spell, as it "wipes away disease, poison, and negative levels," but I worry about mixing immobility with what is essentially a stealth druid.

DSS is a rogue/druid prestige class that advances wildshape slowly, casting 9/10, and sneak attack very slowly. It is notable post-wildshape-change for retaining bonuses from weapons and stat boosting gear when wildshaped.

Regarding your assessment of saves, our DM is a min/maxer. These were the character's saves:

SAVES
FORT +15 (6/dru 2/ds 6/con 1/luck)
REF +17 (3/nin 2/dru 6/ds 5/dex 1/luck) Evasion
WILL +29 (6/dru 6/ds 3/divo 11/wis 2/ki 1/luck)

In the first combat he was in at level 20, he rolled ~38 for a Will save vs. Mind Blast and failed despite using a reroll attempt. So conventional amounts of save bonus won't cut it. (Admittedly, the character rolled 9 and 7, but the DC was 43 or so - the fighter types missed by a lot more than that.) The only one who made his save was a warblade using a diamond mind maneuver to get a +20 (IIRC) to the check.

I was thinking I might grab some diamond mind maneuvers and actually feel somewhat safer, but I don't know if that's more important or if immunity to sneak attack/crit/stun is more important. I have a feeling it'll be whichever one I don't choose.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your Will save seems high enough, and Reflex is likely good enough. I'd just grab a novice DM ring (using MIC rules, you can put a deflection bonus on the same ring at no added % cost, so it doesn't even really "take" a ring slot), and use it to get Mind Over Body once/battle. I guess if you're worried about Reflex, could use the other ring slot for Action Before Thought, too. I wouldn't waste a CL just for Diamond Defense, though. Immunity to crit/stun/SA seems more uselful, especially since Stun Ray should be a pretty common casting by early epic. I do notice the lack of "resistance" from your save bonuses. Why? By level 20, a +5 is VERY cheap.

This reminds me though, of another spell useful at your levels that you should be casting daily. Energy Immunity, level 6. Some DMs allow you to cast it 5 times and cover all energy types, others say that counts as overlapping spells. Either way, that makes reflex a lot less important. As for DC 43 at level 20...holy crap. Does he actually expect you guys to compete with that? What are your save DC's for spells with a (very high) +11 wisdom? 30, tops? In the future, the arcanist may want ot invest in Battle Hymn, from SpC. Once per round, allies can reroll a failed Will save. It's sorc/wiz and bard, I think.

As to immunities, doesn't Druid 9 give poison immunity? That's nice to have, too. Unless he then gets cheesy and breaks out the "they aren't poisons, honest!" Ravages from BOED. ^_^

 

[moritheil]

Ah, I don't have MIC so I didn't realize I could get a ring to do that. Although I don't know if that will work wildshaped. That's really my problem - a lot of things won't work when I'm wildshaped. My cloak slot is taken up by a Starmantle robe (best item ever for a level 15+ with acceptable ref saves), but I really should get a vest of resistance. I should have the wilding clasps to spare, though I don't know if they work on rings.

I don't really know what he expects. I know he was sort of proving to our characters that they were at the bottom of the epic pile rather than on the top of the world (as is normal for level 20s) but I assumed he'd stop that after making his point. The campaign went on hiatus after he dropped a building on my druid, so I'm not sure if he's still going to be throwing those sorts of saves about.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The rings are actually in Tome of Battle. The rule for stacking common effects on other items for no extra cost is in MIC.

The items I'm referring to, basically each ToB discipline has one, in a different body slot. There's Iron Heart Vests, Setting Sun Sandals, and so forth. For Diamond Mind (DM), it's the ring slot. The items each let you use a maneuver from that discipline, once/encounter. You can change which maneuver it is between encounters, if you'd like (I think, might be a daily option instead). The only limits are: a) You have to know a certain number of other maneuvers from the discipline to use any given maneuver. For some maneuvers, this number is zero. b) Depending on the item level, you can choose from maneuver levels 1-3, 1-6, or 1-9, "novice" being for levels 1-3, and the cheapest to buy, costing only 3000 gp.

This is why I recommended Mind Over Body (DM level 3, no required maneuvers known) on a ring to cover fort saves. It's cheap. And no level dip required. Diamond Defense is level 6 and requires 1 or 2 known, so you'd need a dip in a class to learn some. Action Before Thought is likewise easy to gain, and is level 2. Both let you use concentration instead of the save, but with a high concentration, that's often good enough. Hope that helped.

 

[moritheil]

Ah, I guess I haven't looked at ToB closely enough. I do vaguely recall the Setting Sun sandals, now that you mention them.

If I were taking a dip in Swordsage to get Diamond Defense, I'd have IL 11 (20 half levels, plus 1 swordsage) and could just take the maneuver without having to rely on an item (though I'd have to burn maneuvers known on the prereqs, surely.) But you're right in that Fort saves are my one real liability.

Really it seems I'd get more from swordsage if I hadn't taken Ninja levels already, because then I could go monk-style swordsage and get wis to AC from that. But I've already got it and it doesn't stack with monk wis to AC. Oh well.

This way I'll get an item to cover Fort saves, and take a level of Warshaper. The Practiced Spellcaster feat will cover that, leaving me at CL 21 (casts as druid 17) with epic spellcasting.