Help a DM engage the players in his campaigns arc.

[Ashrum the Black]

I know thirty pages sounds like a lot, but I started giving each of them just the background on thier country, along with some general world history. That didn't amount to more than maybe eight typed pages each. I gave them all the rest when they seemed to flounder without more detail to work with and after the first 10-12 sessions. Imagine trying to play the realms without having at least flipped through and skimmed the main book and that's what they were like. So I gave them the rest, at their request, and they seemed to do much better.

The books and prophescies really have supported two purposes. One was to drop plot hooks liberally behind me of things they could do and places they could go. That's worked somewhat, but they seem to ignore these more than any other hook. The book that details the tomb that harbors a powerful magical staff has been in their keeping since about 7th level, and they have yet to even comment on it really. Mind you that is an example of the issue, I don't mind them ignoring the plot hooks they're not interested in, I just can't seem to get them interested in any unless the plot hook jumps up and screams "Over Here!"

I'm actually not to bound up in the world I've generated, it's pretty vague actually. I've not detailed more then a few cities and towns and only when they actually went to them. I've only framed out the generalites of the countries. Just enough to establish character, and some places of interest. I've fleshed out a few of the movers and shakers in the world as well as the country they've been in mainly. Of which the PC's are movers and shakers.

As for clarity, I will admit, perhaps it is just my perspective as the writer of the material. I see links everywhere which mayben they can't. But at the same time, I just can't see how ALL of the stuff is that obscure. As for which bits of information they pick out that I pass aling to them, they seem to not be picking out anything.

Which I suppose is the root of the issue for me. I love to play, and imerse my character in the world the DM creates. This, to me, means taking an active part in helping the DM flesh out the story. I'll hand him a hook that says this is what I'd like to do with my character. This is why I adventure. He'll hand back other hooks that say this is what you can do. This information is what you find in this old tome after raiding this tomb. Cool, it mentions an ancient staff, lets set a sage to research that while we go off to save this village.

I don't want the campaign to just flow through an outline that I've written and bang its done. I want the PC's to look at the information I've given them and say "Hey! I think this means abc!" when I actually meant for it to say xyZ. Cool, at least they're involved, and I'll adjust to make abc work. But I can't seem to get them to this level of involvement though.

I'm starting to think that perhaps my very roleplaying heavy group just may want to be a beer and pretsels group now. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, and they're getting more than I think they are. I think I may email them all and see what thier preferance in play style is.

-Ashrum

 

[Ashrum the Black]

Thanks guys for all the idea's.

I am seriously going to talk to them about the information flow and play stye. If they just want to kill things and take their stuff, that's fine. But maybe one of them may want to take over the DMing job for a while then.

Please keep the ideas coming, if anybody has got any other great ideas. I'm always open for more ideas to yoink into my campiagns.

-Ashrum

 

[kigmatzomat]

Things to do:

Int checks to have them remember that "the red book off the guy on the boat" might help on something their doing.

Get a trusted NPC involved. When the NPC asks "where did you learn this" the party can start pulling out the hand outs. Have the players explain it to the NPC with the NPC asking questions. The NPC's mantra should be "this doesn't make sense" to try and get the players to do the brainwork.

Let a Gather Information check turn up someone willing to pay good money for information about the stuff in those books.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Which I suppose is the root of the issue for me. I love to play, and imerse my character in the world the DM creates. This, to me, means taking an active part in helping the DM flesh out the story. I'll hand him a hook that says this is what I'd like to do with my character. This is why I adventure. He'll hand back other hooks that say this is what you can do. This information is what you find in this old tome after raiding this tomb. Cool, it mentions an ancient staff, lets set a sage to research that while we go off to save this village.

I don't want the campaign to just flow through an outline that I've written and bang its done. I want the PC's to look at the information I've given them and say "Hey! I think this means abc!" when I actually meant for it to say xyZ. Cool, at least they're involved, and I'll adjust to make abc work. But I can't seem to get them to this level of involvement though.

I don't neccesarily think that they are just a beer&pretzels group, but it is clear that their focus is different from yours. They aren't especially interested in exploring the detailed ramifications of how current events fit in with backstory, but that doesn't mean that you can't get them engaged.

I think it's worth trying to present them with situations that provide questions they have to answer. They might engage better with the themes you've set up in that way.

For instance, if there's a conflict in the game world between two territories, don't leave it in the background -- give them a situation where they have to deal with two feuding factions, and they're in the middle. Maybe they need to get somewhere that's in a contested "no-man's land", and both sides say "Sure, you can pass through our lands, just carry our banner for safety," because each of them will get something out of having a armed band of adventurers in that territory under their banner. The PCs could pick a side, pick neither (and risk attack from both as they pass), or try to broker some kind of settlement. But whatever they choose, you've illustrated the conflict in an immediate, visceral manner.

If you want to have them deal with the ramifications of prophecy, maybe they rescue a girl who's been left to die in the wilderness. She tells them that the elders of her village were going by a prophecy that says in times of trouble, they are to leave a sacrifice in the wilderness, and that by rescuing her, they are the heroes of the prophecy. So do they take her back, or drop her off somewhere else? What if the village won't receive her back, because that means the heroes foretold are rejecting their sacrifice? Maybe the prophecy is vague, and they can persuade the elders to look at it a different way? What they do doesn't matter, but they have to do something.

Just some ideas. I've played in games where there was all this backstory that didn't seem to show up in actual play, and after a while I started tuning it out even if it was intended to be relevant. Take the interesting stuff, put it right in the PCs' faces so they can't ignore it, and they'll interact with it. It might just be that they aren't interested in "playing outside play", even when the "outside play" stuff is supposed to be PC knowledge. If the characters have to interact with it, they may show an interest.

And if you give them open-ended moral issues to wrestle with and they show no interest, then maybe they are just casual players.

 

[swrushing]

Ok some various points...

Rule 1: "People don't play to do work." Don't expect the PLAYERS to do effectively homework by doing a lot of "extra reading" outside the game session that doesn't directly impact their character play. 30 pages is WAY too much. you cannot teach people with that huge a chunk. I would say your safest bet is to assume nothing of use in the 30 page handout got thru and move along as if you never gave it to them.

Rule 2: Old adage is true, "show them, don't tell them." Picture your handouts as voice over narration in a movie. How much voice over narration do you like to see in a movie as opposed to seeing the stuff play out and come up as a matter of the plot on screen? Would STAR WARS have been a better film if we had a 20 minute monolog at the outset explaining who Luke's father was? Your handouts, while fun to you, are the non-action, non-scene voice overs of your game. If a fact is important enough to warrant a voice over/handout/homework from them, its ALSO worth you figuring out a scene in which it is introduced as part of the scene.

Rule 3: "its about THEM, not your cool stuff." The stars of the show you are running are their PCs and the show should be about them. The show should not be about how cool the scenery around them is. You do realize that every NPC and history and nation and plant and archdemon you wrote 30 pages plus multiple books about are really just scenary, right? Stop seeing your campaign as all this wonderful stuff and sets you have put together and fretting over why the players aren't more involved in that scenery. Instead, start (or reinforce the efforts) working on how the scenery you chose will highlight the story their characters are about. if you give a player a page or two of "history stuff directly related to your character" he will likely read it, maybe even ask questions about it. More importantly, if this info starts out as small bits occuring in SCENES, setup to show him he NEEDS to know about it, you might find the characters going out and trying to find the info, which you can then provide them in small doses which they will pour over like a dehydrated man at an oasis. Make the info integral and relevent to THEIR CHARACTER and introduce a little of it in game and set it up so THEY pursue the info as if its treasure. Don't leave a book as treasure and hope they read it but have a need of theirs drive them to seek out that book.

 

[Mercule]

I know thirty pages sounds like a lot

No. It doesn't just sound like a lot. It is a lot. Eight pages of history will fry pretty much any (read: 98.5%) player's brain. If you're giving them more than one page of text -- two if they're a particularly ambitious group -- for background on stuff that isn't core to their character concept, you've lost them. Better yet, sum that page or two up in words. Then you can give them the eight pages to them "as referrence".

I can guarantee you that your players are significantly less interested in all the details of your world than you are. Casual players care about little beyond their character concept, and may even expect the world to conform to their needs. Serious players will probably not care about much beyond a very small amount of info on the town in which they start and stuff they can use to conform the characters to your world. The absolute cream of the crop will want to know about a handful of things beyond that which immediately impacts them -- or that they can see being an impact relatively quickly.

Feed it to them slowly. If they need all eight pages of info to function reasonably well, that's an elephant they aren't going to be able eat, let alone what happens when you give them 30.

As for clarity, I will admit, perhaps it is just my perspective as the writer of the material. I see links everywhere which mayben they can't. But at the same time, I just can't see how ALL of the stuff is that obscure. As for which bits of information they pick out that I pass aling to them, they seem to not be picking out anything.

Your view is definitely a factor. My degree is in political science. When I was in college, I played in a game in which the climactic chapter saw the fall of three nations' governments. I was also playing a very political character, so I felt fine in using my own knowledge. Within 15-20 minutes of learning the governments had collapsed, I'd worked out a way to replace each one, with people who were favorably disposed to us, and that the DM could not find any reason for any NPC political "player" to object to.

Now, turn that around to me DMing. When I set up a scenario based on political intrigue that I thought was "challenging, but workable", how quickly do you think the players figured it out? That's right: never. It was doubly damning because the player who tended to act as leader was decidedly anti-political. Even if it interested him, his brain doesn't work that way. I ended up feeling like I had to narrate the entire adventure for them. I was frustrated because I couldn't understand why they didn't get anything, while they were frustrated that I gave them no information on which to act.

Of course, that player later got me back, unintentionally. He's a natural sneak. So, when we played a stealth-oriented group and he acted appropriately, he could not understand why we didn't see all the clues right in front of us, and his game eventually crashed because no one could compete with his sneak tactics.

Which I suppose is the root of the issue for me. I love to play, and imerse my character in the world the DM creates. This, to me, means taking an active part in helping the DM flesh out the story.

Empasis added. One of the hardest things to learn as you're becoming a really good GM is that not everyone is looking for the same thing. Not only that, it isn't that they'd have more fun if they just tried the game a certain way. There are seriously different types of players. DMG2 does a decent run-down, if you can get ahold of that book. Ideas of what people seek are: build an epic story, explore different modes of thought, escape to somewhere else, wield power they can't IRL, exercise their brain, and just blow off steam.

If you're looking to explore and develop some other where and you've got great players who are more interested in creating interesting characters, there's a disconnect. If you want that player to get involved, you can't present the prophesies/campaign/whatever as a puzzle to be solved. That player will only get interested if you open a door to exploring how his character will react to what's going on around him. On the other hand, a problem solver will jump at the chance to decode the prophesy. If you've got a tactician, you might be able to get their attension by having some way to work in organizing allies. Someone who is in the game to fulfill either a "coolness" or "power" fetish could be put in the forefront as a named player in the prophesies -- the other characters will provide critical aid, but the "cool" character gets a lot of the rep.

Make sure you're using the right hook for the right player, though. And that's harder than it sounds. After a couple of decades of DMing -- almost a decade with a lot of the same people -- I'm still working on this. It's really easy to only view things through my own lens and assume something I think is cool will fire up everyone else.

 

[Nellisir]

Incidently, make sure they have a map. I can't keep anything straight without a map.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[S'mon]

I think relevant info is best presented as interesting little snippets that the PCs come across in play, and that builds up to reveal the full picture. Two points:

1. Don't be afraid to remind players of stuff you told them previously! If you want to reard them when they remember things without prompting & make good use of that info, give them generous XP awards. But don't just sit there frustrated while the players fail to link A & B because they've forgotten A, give their PCs Knowledge or INT checks to remember the info. Use the rules to support play.

2. Don't give players thirty page hand-outs. You can put it on your website, but don't expect them to read it. Actually, the one player I had who read everything was the one guy guaranteed to get totally the wrong end of the stick, his innate paranoia coloured everything. Then the other players all depended on him to explain the world to them, so they all got a horribly distorted view...

Advice:

What works well is to hand out short paras of "secret" info, to certain players. Players tend to value 'secret' info much more highly. If you tell a player "this secret info is for your PC alone. You can decide to share it, or not" - you will get MUCH more attention paid to it.

 

[Ashrum the Black]

Thanks guys for all the advice. I think folks are a little stuck on the thirty page write up. Keep in mind I only gave that to them when they asked for it. It really isn't much more than a tone for each of the areas they're from, and some hints for roleplaying a character from there. I never had any expectation that they would read the whole, or do more than skim the section on where they're from. And I made sure they were all aware of the fact I didn't expect them to go home and do homework. But if anybody did (shrug) they might pick up some cool plot elements they can weave into their character that way.

But as for the rest. I agree that the PC's may not be looking for the same thing out of the game that I am. That is, and has been, my fear. The books and prophecies are done as hand outs, they've collected maybe eight over the last two years of actual gaming time. I guess I didn't think that was to much for them to handle. Perhaps I was wrong. I don't know. I looked at the hand outs a cool props and reference for when they say, "hey, what was in that book we found in the Mad Witch's tomb?"

Maps they all have. My simple paint generated map, but it's the same one I use when I DM. I agree though, it's really hard to engage the PC's without at least a map of the area they're in.

As for the adventure being about the characters, that to me goes without saying. The characters came back from their first adventure to a city wide party in their honor. I want the PC's to be the leaders, the movers and the shakers. One PC has expressed interest in leading an army. He got his forst cohort a few game sessions ago. After their done I plan on introducing some more folks to become the core of his army.

Another character had a goal of killing the pirates that destroyed his village and killed his wife. This he got from working through the information I handed out to create his character history. Last session he finished the last one off.

Each of these is fine, I love the guy that's been after the pirates. He's been single minded and it worked well with his character. The guy that wants an army is great, but he doesn't know what he wants to do with it once he has it. Just thinks it'll be cool. Which again, is fine by me, but I can't seem to point them to where this would be useful for the life of me.

What I think I'm getting at is that the player do interact with the world around them, but only so far. I don't want them pouring through notes every session. This is a game and it shoudl involve lots of explosions and swords after all. But one session in two years, and have them make some guess's about what is going on around them would be great. How do other folks do that? I've been trying a lot of what folks have suggested so far for the last six months without a lot of sucess. I'll be trying a fair number more after reading through the suggestions here.

SeenwyTodd: thanks for the advice and I will try some moral issues and see what i get. I've got a feeling now that one of the PC's has been dumped by the group and the player forced to make a new character things may get better on the moral angle. This guy was about as amoral as they come, he literaly tortured and killedThanks guys for all the advice. I think folks are a little stuck on the thirty page write up. Keep in mind I only gave that to them when they asked for it. It really isn't much more than a tone for each of the areas they're from, and some hints for role-playing a character from there. I never had any expectation that they would read the whole, or do more than skim the section on where they're from. And I made sure they were all aware of the fact I didn't expect them to go home and do homework. But if anybody did (shrug) they might pick up some cool plot elements they can weave into their character that way.

But as for the rest. I agree that the PC's may not be looking for the same thing out of the game that I am. That is, and has been, my fear. The books and prophecies are done as hand outs, they've collected maybe eight over the last two years of actual gaming time. I guess I didn't think that was to much for them to handle. Perhaps I was wrong. I don't know. I looked at the hand outs a cool props and reference for when they say, "hey, what was in that book we found in the Mad Witch's tomb?"

Maps they all have. My simple paint generated map, but it's the same one I use when I DM. I agree though, it's really hard to engage the PC's without at least a map of the area they're in.

As for the adventure being about the characters, that to me goes without saying. The characters came back from their first adventure to a city wide party in their honor. I want the PC's to be the leaders, the movers and the shakers. One PC has expressed interest in leading an army. He got his first cohort a few game sessions ago. After their done I plan on introducing some more folks to become the core of his army.

Another character had a goal of killing the pirates that destroyed his village and killed his wife. This hook he cane up with from working through the information I handed out to create his character history. Last session he finished the last one off.

Each of these is fine, I love the guy that's been after the pirates. He's been single minded and it worked well with his character. The guy that wants an army is great, but he doesn't know what he wants to do with it once he has it. Just thinks it'll be cool. Which again, is fine by me, but I can't seem to point them to where this would be useful for the life of me.

What I think I'm getting at is that the player do interact with the world around them, but only so far. I don't want them pouring through notes every session. This is a game of action, and it should involve lots of explosions and swords after all. But one session in two years, and have them make some guess's about what is going on around them would be great. How do other folks do that? I've been trying a lot of what folks have suggested so far for the last six months without a lot of success. I'll be trying a fair number more after reading through the suggestions here.

SeenwyTodd: thanks for the advice and I will try some more moral issues and see what I get. I've got a feeling, now that one of the PC's has been dumped by the group and the player forced to make a new character, things may get better on the moral angle. This guy was about as amoral as they come, he literally tortured and killed a man in one sessions. Horrified the other players as he did it quickly in front of them and left them really no chance to stop him. He sort of killed the save the world atmosphere when one of the "heroes" was worse than the villains.

-Ashrum
a man in none sessions. Horrified the other players as he did it quickly in front of them and left them really no chance to stop him. He sort of killed the save the world atmoshpere when one of the "heros" was worse than the villians.

-Ashrum