Help in getting a second sneak attack

[CapnZapp]

OP, are your PCs mainly fighting solo monsters or large mobs? Because in the latter case your rogue should be getting multiple Sneak Attacks as a matter of course, simply from other enemies being nearby.

Not getting sneak at all is a problem but not the biggest one - it mostly makes it useless for him to roll high on initiative.

So no, he's getting sneak alright.

The issue is that sneak attack damage is vastly overvalued. In simpler terms, it is not enough to avoid falling last on DPR. (Behind Barbarian Champion, Paladin Warlock, Red Dragon Sorcerer, Moon Druid, and Monk, in no particular order)

This is why this thread is about exploring ways to get a second sneak attack possibility in each round.

 

[CapnZapp]

A classic D&D adventure features a balance of combat and skill use. Thus a typical D&D adventuring party can be expected to include a skill monkey (who, may or may not be a rogue) in the same way as they can be expected to include a healer and a meat shield. If no one wanted to play a skill monkey I would have them joined by an NPC hireling/henchman/cohort with the appropriate skills (I usually have at least one prepared before hand).

Nobody here is satisfied by only being a skill monkey.

The justification "since you get to roll for Find Traps you need to suck in combat" rings hollow in my ears.

Combat is the lifeblood of D&D, the cooperative group activity that is its main draw.

Searching for hidden items OTOH is mostly a drag because only one player is active while the others can't contribute. Also it is low-stakes and not as exciting.

So this thread is asking for ways to make every character competitive in combat, regardless of any OOC utility they might have.

 

[CapnZapp]

One thing to consider when dishing out magical weapons is if they give +damage, then a character that gets more than one attack per round (e.g. fighter) multiplies the benefit. So a rogue with a Flame Tongue may gain +3.5 dpr, where as a fighter gains +7 dpr.

Ergo rogue magic weapons, e.g. daggers, should have about twice as much +damage as fighter items.

Agreed.

This is why, for example, I won't let myself be talked into "Ras Nsi is clearly wielding a Flaming Greatsword in that picture..."

Let's hope the Rogue gets it.

(My players decide for themselves who gets what using a cludgey DKP system one of them put together. I have no control over who gets what short of saying things like "This doodad must be attuned to by a Rogue, which I'm sure you agree is a tad too heavy-handed for a longsword)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Nobody here is satisfied by only being a skill monkey.

The justification "since you get to roll for Find Traps you need to suck in combat" rings hollow in my ears.

Combat is the lifeblood of D&D, the cooperative group activity that is its main draw.

Searching for hidden items OTOH is mostly a drag because only one player is active while the others can't contribute. Also it is low-stakes and not as exciting.

So this thread is asking for ways to make every character competitive in combat, regardless of any OOC utility they might have.

Your talking about yourself and your friends here. My group love puzzles, traps and interacting with NPCs at least as much as they love kicking monster butt. They also enjoy watching other players do things sometimes, they don't need to be actively engaged at all times.

But, as the DMG makes clear, D&D is designed around a balance of activities. If you want to make it a purely combat game you may need to adjust the rules to support that.

 

[CapnZapp]

See in most games I've been involved in, the rogue does less damage, but he's so useful to have around that's ok. But it is perhaps less combat heavy than yours.

He *is* useful to have around.

It's just that in any round he rolls low and misses.. He does nothing at all. It is extremely uncommon that any other character fails to do anything in a round (that would be the Druid when wildshaping against the wrong monster and not wishing to cast spells)

Also.. it's ok if not everyone has the exact same DPS right? Like a wizard should be using control spells more and less blasting. And the rogue can help set up a situation where victory is easier to achieve...

You can't tell a wizard what spells to use. There's no "should".

In my case, the Sorcerer loves damage and only casts fire spells. Served him right against the Firenewts where he felt utterly useless!

... so the other players aren't willing to have the rogue have his moment? Sheesh....

I think consensus is that if a class depends on solo play which is a boring time-waste to 5 out of 6 around the table, that design is faulty.

As soon as combat ensues, everyone wants to participate. Not only is this fun, it is obviously less risky as well.

D&D doesn't work like real life. Had the game been less about hit point attrition and more like rocket tag, then maybe it would make sense to have a point man.

But it doesn't.

Besides, while surprise and stealth does enable a sneak attack, the melee rogue mainly depends on allies to get sneak.

And he's way too squishy to function alone. (Not that any party member can stand up to the foes single-handedly)

But no, the other players have not signed up for several rounds of sitting on hands while one player flits from shadow to shadow backstabbing the enemy. In a single-player game like Baldur's Gate it can be fun and exciting to explore ahead with your party thief, while the others stand behind. The computer doesn't mind. The computer isn't setting aside its Sundays for D&D travelling 30 miles and abstaining from family activities just to swing a big axe.

It is a group activity. Let's focus on ways to make the Rogue competitive in this group activity.

 

[CapnZapp]

The road for more damage for my Rogue came from multiclassing to Fighter. The PC started as a Rogue and still identifies mainly as being one, but has more Fighter levels at this point. This has allowed for three attacks a round with Sharpshooter with the first generally being at Advantage because he hides every round. He still has a very good skill range, core Rogue capabilities like Uncanny Dodge & Evasion and is nigh-invisible with high Stealth and stealth-enabling gear.

Agreed.

Shame my player has a hang-up against the concept.

He simply dislikes multiclassed characters. Always have. Even in his favorite CRPG.

 

[CapnZapp]

If in my game i had reached the conclusion that this was a class issue problem, not a player or setting problem, then i would simply remove the per turn limit on sneak so that the rogue class could use TWF bonus attack to get second sneak.

Not saying i agree with this or see need of it in my games but **if** i had reached the conclusions stated by the OP i would deal with it mostly directly with rules chg.

I would prefer to retain the illusion.

Overtly changing the core rules means accepting they are lacking.

If at all possible I would like to handle this by placing a magic item as loot or in shoppe.

 

[Zardnaar]

Nobody here is satisfied by only being a skill monkey.

The justification "since you get to roll for Find Traps you need to suck in combat" rings hollow in my ears.

Combat is the lifeblood of D&D, the cooperative group activity that is its main draw.

Searching for hidden items OTOH is mostly a drag because only one player is active while the others can't contribute. Also it is low-stakes and not as exciting.

So this thread is asking for ways to make every character competitive in combat, regardless of any OOC utility they might have.

Rogue doesn't suck but has more points in the exploration pillar and social than say a fighter. Even in 4E the Rogue was not the best damage dealer.

 

[CapnZapp]

Your talking about yourself and your friends here. My group love puzzles, traps and interacting with NPCs at least as much as they love kicking monster butt. They also enjoy watching other players do things sometimes, they don't need to be actively engaged at all times.

But, as the DMG makes clear, D&D is designed around a balance of activities. If you want to make it a purely combat game you may need to adjust the rules to support that.

This thread is about my group, not yours?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I suspect your group may be younger. Although In my experience there is more sitting on your hands waiting your turn during combat than during puzzle solving.

Whatever, D&D 5e isn't designed as a pure combat game, and the class design reflects that.