Help making a thief

[sparhawk]

the gaming group I am joining is starting a new campaign(sp) in a couple of weeks and I am going to be a thief (rouge). I need help picking a race from the silver marshes area as well as what skills and feats I should look for. I am debating on either a human,halfling or dwarf. We are starting at 1st level and will be using the 4d6 drop the lowest number rule for making charecters.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I am new to 3ed rules so some of the skill uses are unknown to me.

Thanks in advance for any help
Sparhawk

 

[kengar]

Without min/maxing, I would say human or halfling. Human for the feats and skills, halfling for the DEX. Personally, I would lean towards human.

Some Feats to consider from:
Improved Initiative (for more Sneak Attack opportunities)
Lightning Reflexes
Dodge
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Finesse (Rapier) (for human)
Combat Reflexes

Skills: Take plenty of ranks in Spot, Listen, Search & Open Lock/Disable Device & Tumble (TUMBLE TUMBLE TUMBLE). Move Silent, Bluff, Appraise, Climb & Use Rope too.

A rapier and a light crossbow are good enough to fight with, a chain shirt is a must as well.

Rogues are crazy with skill points, so take advantage of that with a good INT. INT & DEX are your friends.

Decide what kind of rogue you're going to be. Urban thief? Wilderness bandit? Dungeon crawl/tomb raider? Make that your focus but don't totally neglect the other aspects.

Don't worry too much about combat at first. Stick and move. Get your sneak attacks through surprise and flanking, use your crossbow when you can (Precise Shot and Rapid Fire feats when you can). Toe-to-toe is the fighter's job.

Think sneaky and stealthy and clever. Not charging in like a bull.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ravellion]

campaign(sp)

That's fine.

(rouge)

But this isn't. It's a pet peeve of many people on these boards, since rouge is a very common type of makeup, and Rogues, are, well, Rogues.

I need help picking a race from the silver marshes area as well as what skills and feats I should look for. I am debating on either a human,halfling or dwarf. We are starting at 1st level and will be using the 4d6 drop the lowest number rule for making charecters.

Well, Dwarves have a few advantages for the dungeon environment, namely Stonecunning & Darkvision. The +2 to saves vs magic and poison are very nice when you do set off a trap accidentaly. Dwarves make good 'Dungeon delvers'. Disable device, Search, Open Lock are staple skills for such a Rogue.

Halflings are the real burglar/thief type rogues. Their +2 to dex and +2 to many acrobatic skills (and the +4 to hide due to small size) make them good in sneak attacks and breaking and entering, as well as picking pockets.

Humans, are IMO, the best thieves. Though they do not get any bonusses to skills, you do get one extra skill point per level, which means you can max out one more skill. Strangely enough, the 8 skill points per level are not really enough for all you really want to max out. The extra feat also means you are more likely to hold your own in combat (for instance, you can take Ambidexterity and Two weapon fighting.). The thing is, your definitely not as good at stealth as the halfling will be, so your sneak attacks might be best acquired by flanking.

Rav

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i would add elf to the race debate. alot of rogues i've seen played are so desperate to expand their weapons list, they multi-class to a fighter-type (which isn't necessarily a bad thing...).

being an elf automatically gives you proficiencies in longsword (you'd already have rapier from your Rogue list) and longbows. plus, the additional Dex doesn't hurt a Rogue either

if you roll your stats and find you need some more skill points, ask about a Sun Elf from FR. they get -2 Con, +2 Int

you may also want to look over some PrCs now, to see if any catch your eye and get an idea what feats or skills are required. i don't think this is too min/max-ish, because any character could say, "i want to be a (Duelist, Guild Thief, Wild Scout, etc.) like my father!"

 

[sparhawk]

thief

Thanks for the input thus far.
This is my nexat question. What and where can I get info on the better PRC's for a rogue? I have seen the ones in the song and silence book and I have downloaded quite a list from different web sites but I am unsure which ones are the better PRC's or if it is really the best thing to do.
I do not like to play the type of rogue that is the urban style. I like the rogue that helps the party by making it safer for them to get to places which would be more of the dungeon delving type.

 

[kengar]

I haven't read it myself, but you might take a look at "The Quintessential Rogue" by Mongoose Publishing.

 

[Al]

I'd go against the orthodox that high Int=good Rogue. This is only true for a particular brand of Rogue, and this brand is probably at least as rare, if not rarer, than the Charisma-type Rogue.

For a typical combat Rogue, this is unnecessary. You are *inundated* with skill points. Even non-humans can max out eight skills (NB maxing out every skill is not necessarily the best, or most sensible bet). The combat Rogue, once he has picked up basic skills (Hide, MS, Listen, Spot, Search, DD, Open Lock, Tumble) is better served putting points into Strength or Constitution. The non-combat Rogue is better suited to putting his high scores into Charisma or Wisdom.

Remember that this game is about % increments. Another few skill points onto a great horde of them is not a big deal; another couple of hit points onto a handful is quite a boost.

Edit: Woohoo! My 500th post. Sad, aren't I?

 

[sparhawk]

I'd go against the orthodox that high Int=good Rogue. This is only true for a particular brand of Rogue, and this brand is probably at least as rare, if not rarer, than the Charisma-type Rogue.

The non-combat Rogue is better suited to putting his high scores into Charisma or Wisdom.

Remember that this game is about % increments. Another few skill points onto a great horde of them is not a big deal; another couple of hit points onto a handful is quite a boost.

Edit: Woohoo! My 500th post. Sad, aren't I?

What is the purpose of the the higher Charisma other than skill bonus? Why not just go with a slightly higher Charisma at creation and still go with the high Intelligence?
I will be getting with my GM this weekend to create the character and I want his back ground to focus on his father being an adventuring rogue then becoming a lock smith when he decided to retire from the adventuring life. How do the 0(zero) lvl classes work and is it a good idea to try and take one for background history?

 

[Ravellion]

What is the purpose of the the higher Charisma other than skill bonus? Why not just go with a slightly higher Charisma at creation and still go with the high Intelligence?
I will be getting with my GM this weekend to create the character and I want his back ground to focus on his father being an adventuring rogue then becoming a lock smith when he decided to retire from the adventuring life. How do the 0(zero) lvl classes work and is it a good idea to try and take one for background history?

If you're referring to the apprentice level characters in the DMG, I would stay away from those unless it's integral to your concept that you are a rogue/wizard, rogue/cleric etc. Just taking a few ranks in Profession:Locksmith seems a lot closer to what you want. Perhaps 5 ranks in Profession locksmith might give you a +2 synergy bonus to Open Lock if your DM is nice.

Al: He said he wanted to be a thief. Thieves need other skills than sneak attacking combat rogues do, I agree, but I see a lot more thieves than I do combat rogues (Combat rogues soooo suck against Undead, Constructs , Plants & elementals, because of the "No discernable anatomy" thing)

Rav

 

[Snoweel]

If you're EVER going underground, Dwarves make awesome rogues.

Your Cha-based skills will suffer a little, but you'll last so much longer. Darkvision, too, is nice.