Help me beat my DM :)

[Zappo]

I don't think so... there are counters to this tactic, but they take some preparation, and you've got to know in advance what's going to happen. Which isn't the case, because I would have been telling the DM for days that I was "probably" going to use a cleric with Harm.

And the sorc would of course use some more tricks too. You know, True Sight, Haste, a Contingency ("If the dragon is still alive after the attack, get the heck out of here!"), that sort of things. For added safety. What about having a Simulacrum actually perform the attack?

 

[Nail]

Please do not assume such a condescending attitude.

...???...Okay...... (geeezz....)

Hogwash. They are balanced by the rules contained in the spell write-up. I think if you spend 5,000 xp on a spell, it should do what you mean, not what you say.

That's certainly one way to play it. But I'll bet if we sat down a bunch of us to talk about it (not necessarily the 3e designers), the majority would not agree with you. Kinda like when you ask a wish from a genie......you'd better be careful.

And really, the spell(s) works best if you have to be moderately careful. If I'm a player, with a PC with Int 30, could I say (after you, the DM, misinterprete my wish), "Hey, that's not what I meant!!"

If you allow this, you're a very nice DM. No condesention implied.

Maybe we need a poll! (Oh goody....)

We don't require the fighter's player to be really strong and actually swing weapons around the room. Why should we then require the mage to be smarter than the player is capable? You don't have a 30 Int. I don't have one either. But it's written on the character sheet. How else do we simulate that except by making it work as meant instead of as said?

Ummmm...well, see above. And let's put it this way: rules are there to help...but in the end, it's going to be a DM judgement call. (Remind me to look you up when my PC casts a wish.)

I was saying the dragon would word the contingency (a spell he's known for 500 years) correctly. Not that he could predict the future with his Int. Stay on topic. He wouldn't make the mistake of casting contingency incorrectly.

Staying on topic, Sir!!

It's probably true that the DM could prepare this sort of thing in advance, and thus work out any bugs. Heck, you could use the 'boards here for that.

But you seem to have missed th' point of my example. He wasn't predicting the future, he was using the "psychology of the individual" to predict the PCs next move. He does have a 30 Int, right?

My point is: regardless of Int, dragons are mortal and fallible. Saying that they don't make mistakes "like that"....well, doesn't that take some of the fun out?

If you wish to continue being pedantic in this thread then I will sadly bow out of it.

.....and that would be too bad. Really.

 

[Nail]

Ok I'm not hyperventalating and I'm not forgetting the word fun. This, in the most simple terms possible, is my point.
.....snip......
It's just that on general princeple, when facing a single 18th level character, a dragon should almost always win.

FWIW, I agree. But in this particular case we're just "seeing if it's possible". It's an interesting problem, nicht var?

Re: army of solars
Are you bringing these to the party, or summoning them while there? Using Time stop to do the summons (via Gate)? I'll bet there might be room for the arguement, "other creatures can't be affected by spells during Time Stop, including potential called creatures."

And seriously, summon a Celestial (very old) Gold Dragon. Much better than a solar. Then let him cast Gate to summon an even more powerful Celestial Gold Dragon. Soon you would have an army of Ancient Celestial Gold Dragons! (Called creatures may call other creatures.)

Did I mention I kite checks to remain wealthy in RL?

 

[kkoie]

I dunno, the summon solar tactic seems way too shakey. I don't think that would work very well. Unless you have them summoned before hand. For example, if I was dming this, my dragon would also know timestop. Thats the tactic I used against my players. He timestopped, then started throwing out multiple wails of the banshee as well as other very nasty spells.

 

[Despaxas]

The reason I'm gating in about 8 solars (on scrolls) with 2 time-stops (scrolls) is that they act on my initiative. They come, draw their bows and launch 8 slaying arrows (1 of em is gonna work ... right?)

I just thought of this: contingency: when I die teleport to temple (where I have a deal with the clerics, they res me) So even if I die, the solars will proceed to beat the crap out of the dragon, I get ressed, I still win!!!!

Ofcourse the plan is not to die.

 

[schporto]

OK first off my books aren't in front of me. Second I tend not to play that high level of chars. But here's my silly though from reading everything.
Make a flesh golem, but change the umm receipe. Lace its body with that sneezing chocking cursed powder. Send him in front of you. The dragon - being extremely bright - wouldn't bother using a spell on this pathetic thing. He'd just bend down, and bite. Maybe he'd hit with a swipe of his claws. But, me being a dragon, I'd bite down. Mmmm tasty flesh. Aaaachooo! Yeah I know that is truly a silly idea, but hey its a different tactic.
Or another strange idea. Walk in with a white flag. Challenge the dragon to a contest of wits. Option 1 - poision both drinks (sorry couldn't resist). Option 2 - actually be serious and have yourself buffed on intelligence and wisdom. Most dragons probably couldn't resist this challenge and the DM probably has the dragon set up for attacking not thinking. You can still 'defeat' the dragon just changing the terms of 'defeat'. Have a contingecy of teleport if the dragon attacks.
-cpd

 

[kkoie]

The reason I'm gating in about 8 solars (on scrolls) with 2 time-stops (scrolls) is that they act on my initiative. They come, draw their bows and launch 8 slaying arrows (1 of em is gonna work ... right?)

I just thought of this: contingency: when I die teleport to temple (where I have a deal with the clerics, they res me) So even if I die, the solars will proceed to beat the crap out of the dragon, I get ressed, I still win!!!!

Ofcourse the plan is not to die.

I think you have too many if's. If you get initiative, If the dragon fails a save (considering the DCs of arrows of slaying, I doubt it.)

I think you should employ a differn't tactic. Why not go in with a staff of timestop? The staff would be very easy to create.

Then, before the battle begins, cast a wish to know the dragons full name. Have multiple scrolls and memorized Trap the soul spells ready. By knowing the dragons name, you ignore SR, and the Will Save DC increases by 2 (granted thats quite small, but still significant). Have your sorcerer take spell focus in Conjuration so you get that extra bit of increase in Trap The Souls DC. Then, durring the time stop, essentially hope that eventually the dragon misses his willsave.

IF you can, create a staff of Trap the Soul as well. That way you'll start out with a bunch of them. Having that, and a staff of Timestop will give you a better chance.

Personally I don't see how that wouldn't fall under using only the core books. Creating a staff of time stop and trap the soul would be a very simple task. (I'd recommend two staves rather than 1 with both spells, more charges that way. Better yet, make them rods instead of staves, for unlimited use!)

 

[jmucchiello]

...???...Okay...... (geeezz....)
That's certainly one way to play it. But I'll bet if we sat down a bunch of us to talk about it (not necessarily the 3e designers), the majority would not agree with you. Kinda like when you ask a wish from a genie......you'd better be careful.

I said when you spend 5000 xp on a spell it should do what you want. Not when a genie spends 5000 xp on a spell it should do what you want.

And really, the spell(s) works best if you have to be moderately careful. If I'm a player, with a PC with Int 30, could I say (after you, the DM, misinterprete my wish), "Hey, that's not what I meant!!"

Sure. And if you had spent the 5000 xp on the wish I'll even fix it. Or I'll just have the wish do nothing (as the spell says can also happen).

If you allow this, you're a very nice DM. No condesention implied.

If I wanted to be a lawyer and quible over the wording of things, I'd go to law school. If I want to sit around on a Sunday evening and entertainment me and my friends with a game of D&D, I won't require a law degree from the player who casts a wish. But, then, I play with 3 other DMs as players. If I don't like a wish I ask, would you allow that wish to work in your game? And if he says yes, I write down the wish and have everyone at the table sign on that he said he'd allow it. (This is not a real contract, just an amusement.) That cuts down on the annoying wishes.

But you seem to have missed th' point of my example. He wasn't predicting the future, he was using the "psychology of the individual" to predict the PCs next move. He does have a 30 Int, right?

I don't care how smart you are, you have to meet someone before you can use psychology against them.

My point is: regardless of Int, dragons are mortal and fallible. Saying that they don't make mistakes "like that"....well, doesn't that take some of the fun out?

But, I accept that I am far more fallible than the 800 year old, 35 Int Dragon and thus I give the Dragon a bit more leeway when making his contingencies. In fact, I would assume that such creatures no the exact point at which a contingency goes from working to "too complex" by the number of letters in the wording. The Dragon probably words his contingency in multiple languages to squeeze the most meaning into them.

 

[Creamsteak]

But, I accept that I am far more fallible than the 800 year old, 35 Int Dragon and thus I give the Dragon a bit more leeway when making his contingencies. In fact, I would assume that such creatures no the exact point at which a contingency goes from working to "too complex" by the number of letters in the wording. The Dragon probably words his contingency in multiple languages to squeeze the most meaning into them.

What? Just what? What? What? You lost me at the word But. You actually considered whether or not the dragon would be able to think of the right thing to say, and then you decide to justify that even though you know the answer? Was it necessary??? You believe that because of X, Y is true, but in order for Y to be true, X is assumed to ABC Y so that X would be true? Is that what I just read?

... who exactly were you doing that for? Who required you to justify that? Why did you...

I'm going to go insane if I keep thinking of this...

 

[Larry Fitz]

It's not called "Dungeons and 17th level Sorcerors/1st level Paladins" gang. I was going to wait till I had a chance to re-read "Gate" before posting, but I thought, hey, this is Enworld, if I'm mistaken, someone will flame me for it, quote the relevant passage, and I'll stand corrected. When you try to Gate in your Solars, why would they have to attack the dragon for you? What if it is a Half-Celestial Gold Dragon? Or Heck, just a Gold Dragon Priest of a LG god? Arrows of Slaying you say? If it casts a Death Ward (that is from PHB isn't it?) it buys itself enough time to croak you , even with your Solar buddies attacking a creature they have no beef with.... Don't forget the possibility that the Dragon can cast Mord's Disj on you, then your staff and scrolls are just a nifty idea that didn't quite work out as planned.

As to the wording of contingencies for Ludicrous Old Wyrms; I have to agree with the posters that assert that the Dragon can word the spells to fit his intent. Because the creature is actually smarter than most DM's, you have to give it advantages like that to accurately portray it's intellectual superiority. That's what makes these things the creatures of fearsome legend that they are, not just that they are big fire-breathing flying lizards, but that they are big fire-breathing flying lizards that are scary smart.

Long-live BADD!!!!