Help me beat my DM :)

[Nail]

As I said earlier, adjucating this spell would be tricky.....

I would suggest that your interpretation makes no sense as even a quickened M's Disjunction requires a free action to accomplish and a character with a readied action could in theory cancel that spell with an attack or a counterspell,...

This is irrelevant. The Contingency spell goes off when certain conditions are met....we're not argueng about how fast contingency is, strictly speaking.

that a spell whose description uses the word instanteous albiet in the flavor text would also be able to counter the effect of the disjunction.

Flavor text is annoying, no?

In any case, we're not talking about a counterspell. We're talking about "first A, then B". How fast "B" is.....well, that's not really important if it happens after "A", is it?

 

[Berk]

In any case, we're not talking about a counterspell. We're talking about "first A, then B". How fast "B" is.....well, that's not really important if it happens after "A", is it?

If worded correctly B can happen at the same time A is happening so then it doesn't really matter what A is since B happened at the same time.

As jmucchiello said.

So change the wording of the contingency to "When a 9th level spell is being cast by someone else within 200 feet of me." I don't word lawyer spells. It's fricking magic. Magic has intelligence. Wishes do what you mean. And I'm not about to open argument about it the other way. I play with my players not against them. Afterall, the dragon with the 35 Int is not going to make the mistake of forgetting the word "being" when he casts the contingency. Me with a mortal Int can certainly make such a mistake.

Dragon's are extremely smart. Very much more so then you and most likely the character. It will know, it will anticipate, and it will counter.

And for the record IMO, cohort chains are weak and nowhere near legal in the game mechanics of it. The only time I would allow them is if the cohort is planning on overthrowing their current "leader".

 

[Zappo]

That "when" means "immediately after", OK. But a spell is first cast, and then it happens. Theorically, a contingency could go off while the wizard performs the gestures but before the spell actually happens, much like a counterspell. The problem is that in this case it has to recognize the spell by the gestures alone, AKA make a Spellcraft check. Personally, I wouldn't allow this, because while magic can be an "intelligent force", I don't see it as having skills too. That's just my interpretation though.

 

[Nail]

So change the wording of the contingency to "When a 9th level spell is being cast by someone else within 200 feet of me." I don't word lawyer spells. It's fricking magic. ...

And I'm sure yer a wonderful DM. Really. But what bearing does that have here? Zero. Really.

The Contingency versus 9th level spells sounds like a great idea. Clever use, and all o' that dreck. I'm just poking at it to see if it stands up to some scrutiny.

It seems as if spells like this, that depend on how the caster words his request, are balanced by that limitation. IOW, wish, contingency, and the like are balanced by the need to be careful when you word them.

As for your claim that high Int dragons wouldn't make mistakes ....well, that's just ludicrious. Not only is that essentially impossible to adjudicate as a DM, but it takes out at least part of the fun of the encounter.

DM: "The dragon rears back after noting your approach, and casts a quickened True Seeing. He instantly sees through your polymorphed-into-dragon's-guards disquise, so he proceeds to cast Haste, then Time Stop. Then he......"

Player 1: "Hey, how'd he know to cast True Seeing?"

DM: "He's super intellegent, of course! He guessed your next move, logically deducing it from your past actions! He didn't even need to scry you."

Player 1: "But we only just found that scroll of Polymorph.....

DM: "Hah! But he knew you'd find it, and based on the psychology of the individual.......

Player 2: "Hey DM, can your dragon guess what I'm gonna do with this empty beer can?..........."

 

[Nail]

That "when" means "immediately after", OK. But a spell is first cast, and then it happens. Theorically, a contingency could go off while the wizard performs the gestures but before the spell actually happens, much like a counterspell. The problem is that in this case it has to recognize the spell by the gestures alone, AKA make a Spellcraft check. Personally, I wouldn't allow this, because while magic can be an "intelligent force", I don't see it as having skills too. That's just my interpretation though.

What Zappo said.

 

[Zappo]

I've made a thread to discuss Contingency here.

Let's bring the strictly rules-related Contingency discussion there. Despaxas needs help on a sorc17/pal1 now.

 

[jmucchiello]

And I'm sure yer a wonderful DM. Really. But what bearing does that have here? Zero. Really.

Please do not assume such a condescending attitude.

It seems as if spells like this, that depend on how the caster words his request, are balanced by that limitation. IOW, wish, contingency, and the like are balanced by the need to be careful when you word them.

Hogwash. They are balanced by the rules contained in the spell write-up. I think if you spend 5,000 xp on a spell, it should do what you mean, not what you say. We don't require the fighter's player to be really strong and actually swing weapons around the room. Why should we then require the mage to be smarter than the player is capable? You don't have a 30 Int. I don't have one either. But it's written on the character sheet. How else do we simulate that except by making it work as meant instead of as said?

As for your claim that high Int dragons wouldn't make mistakes ....well, that's just ludicrious. Not only is that essentially impossible to adjudicate as a DM, but it takes out at least part of the fun of the encounter.

{Stupid example snipped.}

I was saying the dragon would word the contingency (a spell he's known for 500 years) correctly. Not that he could predict the future with his Int. Stay on topic. He wouldn't make the mistake of casting contingency incorrectly.

If you wish to continue being pedantic in this thread then I will sadly bow out of it. It is possible to find holes in the game without being pedantic about wording.

 

[Despaxas]

Ehum ...

Let's bring the strictly rules-related Contingency discussion there. Despaxas needs help on a sorc17/pal1 now.

Indeed

Come on guys throw out some nifty set of equipment to use against dragons. 440000 gold to spend. Lemme see those brains working

 

[kkoie]

Ok I'm not hyperventalating and I'm not forgetting the word fun. This, in the most simple terms possible, is my point.

The CR's for Red and Blue dragons are 25 and 24 respectively. If the 18th level PC in question, wins once, against a red or blue dragon, when he is fighting by himself. Then quite frankly, the DM screwed up and didn't do his job well, or just doesn't know how to properly play a dragon.

I can see an 18th PC getting lucky and killing a great white wyrm, considering its CR is 20. But for dragons like a blue or red, we are talking a complitely differn't situation.

In my last campaign, when my PC's fought a great red wyrm, there were about 6 or 7 characters, and the average level was 20. The dragon itself was not a carbon copy from the MM, but it was a straight dragon, no extra class levels. And about half of the party were completely incapasitated or just totally blown away before they killed the dragon. And they did indeed prepare well in advance and got some lucky rolls. And one of them was a psion who used that totally BS psion smackdown with psychic feedback (that was before I knew how broken a psion can be).

So I don't mean to come off like I'm getting red in the face when I'm responding about your smackdown techniques and whatnot. It's just that on general princeple, when facing a single 18th level character, a dragon should almost always win.

 

[kkoie]

Ehum ...

Indeed

Come on guys throw out some nifty set of equipment to use against dragons. 440000 gold to spend. Lemme see those brains working

depends, can you create items? And do they have to be listed in the DMG or can be something using the core rules? For example, can your Character use part of its cash to create a staff? say one ment for killing dragons? If all the answers are yes, then have your Wizard create a staff with specific spells you think might come in handy (like haste, timestop, etc etc etc). Of course if YOU can create items, then that would open a whole new door for the DM as well.

Also, if you are roleplaying a wizard, I'd spend as much as possible on items that increase intelligence and protection gear. Granted the dragon will probably hit anyway, but that doesn't mean you have to make it easy for him. Also buy lots of stuff to increase your saves (you'll need them). You might as well spend the xp and gp nessessary to increase your stats some, not just your int.