Space Coyote
First Post
Oooooo, I forgot about those. I will add them to the list
Help me convince my players to wear heavy armor.
- Thread starter Space Coyote
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Oooooo, I forgot about those. I will add them to the list
Machiavelli
First Post
I've always thought that the magical items, enchantments, and such are out of control in D&D. Classes, PrC's, templates, feats, skills, weapons, armor... these are flavorful, interesting concepts that progressively add to a player's abilities and power. Magic items... mostly aren't. You just have this... THING hanging around that for no apparent reason, and with no odd side-effects, arbitrarily improves you. Ok, so you have a metal band around your wrist and a vaguely sado-masochistic leather belt around your waist. Why the heck do these things mean that I can't seem to get my sword to HIT you despite my unerringly accurate blows and your pathetic attempts to move your squishy, vulnerable flesh out of the way, AND you can crush my head like a walnut in your pale, skinny fingers?! WHY??? Oh, right, just cuz the rulez sez so. THAT makes sense.
Without all sorts of arbitrary magical protection items, your characters would have to rely on actual combat prowess and arcane powers to avoid being killed. Barring that, they'd at least have to keep their extremely vulnerable flesh hidden behind some solid armor and a stout shield. Barring even that, they would have to be careful to assess potential confrontations and prepare themselves such that they always have a distinct advantage over their foes: ambushes, traps, strategy, and the element of surprise.
Of course you can avoid all of that fun role-playing in your role-playing game by strapping on enough accessories to keep Macy's in business for years. That works, too, if shopping is your "thing".
Without all sorts of arbitrary magical protection items, your characters would have to rely on actual combat prowess and arcane powers to avoid being killed. Barring that, they'd at least have to keep their extremely vulnerable flesh hidden behind some solid armor and a stout shield. Barring even that, they would have to be careful to assess potential confrontations and prepare themselves such that they always have a distinct advantage over their foes: ambushes, traps, strategy, and the element of surprise.
Of course you can avoid all of that fun role-playing in your role-playing game by strapping on enough accessories to keep Macy's in business for years. That works, too, if shopping is your "thing".
nobodez
Explorer
Machiavelli said:
Rebuttal:
Those bracers, which are more than just metal bracelets, but instead are metal or leather pieces that strap to the forearm (either the inside or outside, depending on if you're a fencer or an archer), and provide a magical force protection, protection much like a chain shirt. Oh, and I think that belt's a Belt of Giant Strength, and so it uses magic. How would you apply a Bull's Strength via in-game reasoning?
Now, I'm done with the rebuttal, on to the OP's original point.
I really see no issue with the lack of heavy armor. I find that I don't enjoy characters in heavy armor, visually at least. I have, though, played a character that at first level acquired Plate Armor of the Deep. Previous to this, he wore a chain shirt, but after that, it was his signature, and since his dex was low enough, and the PAotD didn't penalize his swimming (not that he had any), it worked for him. This was my first (and only) Living City character.
Most characters I see in images usually are wearing Scale armor (a medium armor), for instance, Jozan, Regdar, Tordek, Alhandra, to name a few. That's the largest I see the iconics wear. The epic cleric (ELH) is wearing either Full or Half plate. The epic fighter, either Half or Banded. The epic Paladin, either Banded, or Half. All are probably wearing the mithral versions thereof. Heavy armor is not very dramatic. It slows you down, is difficult to move in, and obscures pretty much your entire form. It gives RPers very little to describe.
I have a character in Living Greyhawk who wears Scale Mail, and will probably never go below Medium armor, mainly because he has a horrible Dex and needs all the AC he can get. He's a marshal/bard (he's grabbing Armored Mage at 3rd level), and it totally fits his character. If your Players don't want to play the lumbering guy in Plate Mail, then don't force it. So what? If they're not having fun, then they shouldn't be playing.
Quartz
Hero
How about taking a leaf out of the jousting book, where they had the heaviest armour of all, and have heavy armour drop levels of criticals or make criticals harder? Where a weapon crits on 19-20, it now only crits on a 20. Or if the crit is x3, now it's x2. Perhaps Full Plate armour does both?
Or you could give them suits of mithril full plate.
Here's another thought: the better your armour seems to be, the more seriously you're going to be taken on the battlefield? Basically, a circumstance bonus to Diplomacy / Bluff / Intimidate etc.
Or you could give them suits of mithril full plate.
Here's another thought: the better your armour seems to be, the more seriously you're going to be taken on the battlefield? Basically, a circumstance bonus to Diplomacy / Bluff / Intimidate etc.
Aust Diamondew
First Post
Heavy armor is less ability score intensive to get a high AC with than a guy with light armor.
If I'm playing a melee fighter would I rather invest 12 dex and a 18 con or a 18 dex and a 12 con.
With the former if I wear plate I'll have a AC of 19 (with out anything else added in) the other guy wearing a chain shirt will have an 18 AC and move a bit faster but have much lower hit points and fortitude saves (which are much more useful than reflex saves most of the time).
Of course +2 breastplate is comparable in power to that plain old full plate it's magical.
Give out equal amounts of magically enchanted armor of each type (light, medium, heavy) in treasure. Not necessarily in the same treasure but spread out over several treasure hordes and heavy armor will once more be useful.
If your players just prefer archtypes that wear light armor there isn't much you're going to be able to do.
If I'm playing a melee fighter would I rather invest 12 dex and a 18 con or a 18 dex and a 12 con.
With the former if I wear plate I'll have a AC of 19 (with out anything else added in) the other guy wearing a chain shirt will have an 18 AC and move a bit faster but have much lower hit points and fortitude saves (which are much more useful than reflex saves most of the time).
Of course +2 breastplate is comparable in power to that plain old full plate it's magical.
Give out equal amounts of magically enchanted armor of each type (light, medium, heavy) in treasure. Not necessarily in the same treasure but spread out over several treasure hordes and heavy armor will once more be useful.
If your players just prefer archtypes that wear light armor there isn't much you're going to be able to do.
Fieari
Explorer
I would vote for heavy armors providing either DR x/--, or better yet, hardness, as mentioned above. It's amazing how effective even a couple points of DR or hardness can save your butt. Maybe even just 1 point for plate, 2 for full... better yet, allow enhancement bonuses to this. If not just adding the +bonus to the hardness, then a +1 equivelent ability that ONLY adds to the hardness...
That would make me forget many of the downsides to heavy armor.
That would make me forget many of the downsides to heavy armor.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I would suggest using an Armor as DR variant.. most of those tend to encourage heavy armors.
I also like Quartz' suggestion of having heavy armor reduce the criticals variables on attacks. One that would make it really attractive is to have heavy armor reduce the attacks crit multiplier by 1.. which would negate critical damage from a large portion of weapons.
I also like Quartz' suggestion of having heavy armor reduce the criticals variables on attacks. One that would make it really attractive is to have heavy armor reduce the attacks crit multiplier by 1.. which would negate critical damage from a large portion of weapons.
I just thought of these as I was reading through the posts.
--assign DR, maybe equal to 1/2 the AC value provided by the armor. This would give leather armor a DR of 1/-- and Full Plate DR 4/--.
--Offer feats characters can take that will increase the DR of the armor by up to an equal amount the armor originally provides.
--Grant the AC value of the armor as a bonus to Strength checks and checks to resist certain things. Someone in Full Plate is going to be a lot more difficult to Bull Rush or Grapple than someone in light or no armor--its just much heavier and its not nearly as flexible.
--Provide a bonus to damage equal to the DR bonus the armor provides.
--Use/improvise Hardness rules. Someone in full plate could easily crash through a wooden door, while an unarmored person is going to bruise their shoulder.
--Allow the DR to apply to all damage dice. So, a 10D6 fireball dropped on a full plate wearing warrior (DR 4/--) is going to inflict only 1-2 points of damage per die that is a 5 or a 6. Or maybe halve the DR against magic, full plate armor stopping 2 pts per die is going to inflict a lot of respect for heavy armor. This could be balanced by certain effects doing certain things to the armor. Electric attacks may inflict +1 or 2 points per die, while acid may not damage the person, it could reduce the armor's DR until repaired.
--Allow DR to apply to all damage die for critical hits, sneak attacks, etc.
--Offer feats that can reduce the armor check penalty by 1 or 2 points. Or increase the max Dex bonus by 1 or 2 points.
--Allow the DR bonus to be added to the AC value when the attacker is rolling to confirm a critical hit. It should be a lot harder to score a critical hit on someone in platemail over someone in leather.
--assign DR, maybe equal to 1/2 the AC value provided by the armor. This would give leather armor a DR of 1/-- and Full Plate DR 4/--.
--Offer feats characters can take that will increase the DR of the armor by up to an equal amount the armor originally provides.
--Grant the AC value of the armor as a bonus to Strength checks and checks to resist certain things. Someone in Full Plate is going to be a lot more difficult to Bull Rush or Grapple than someone in light or no armor--its just much heavier and its not nearly as flexible.
--Provide a bonus to damage equal to the DR bonus the armor provides.
--Use/improvise Hardness rules. Someone in full plate could easily crash through a wooden door, while an unarmored person is going to bruise their shoulder.
--Allow the DR to apply to all damage dice. So, a 10D6 fireball dropped on a full plate wearing warrior (DR 4/--) is going to inflict only 1-2 points of damage per die that is a 5 or a 6. Or maybe halve the DR against magic, full plate armor stopping 2 pts per die is going to inflict a lot of respect for heavy armor. This could be balanced by certain effects doing certain things to the armor. Electric attacks may inflict +1 or 2 points per die, while acid may not damage the person, it could reduce the armor's DR until repaired.
--Allow DR to apply to all damage die for critical hits, sneak attacks, etc.
--Offer feats that can reduce the armor check penalty by 1 or 2 points. Or increase the max Dex bonus by 1 or 2 points.
--Allow the DR bonus to be added to the AC value when the attacker is rolling to confirm a critical hit. It should be a lot harder to score a critical hit on someone in platemail over someone in leather.
airwalkrr
Adventurer
Personally, I never had the OP's problem with heavy armor. In fact, I've had the opposite. It seems like way too many people clank around in full plate all the time. Feats like Heavy Armor Optimization and special armors like battle plate just seem to make it worse. Have your players look at the various heavy armors in Races of Stone and see if they are interested in those.
From my perspective, a good heavy-armor fighter or paladin is a valuable asset. Let's say you are building from a 25 point-buy. You are considering either a barbarian or a fighter. You have the wherewithal to not want to stick any points into the "wasted" ability scores like Int, Wis, and Cha, well, maybe a 12 Wis to help prevent domination. So that leaves 21 points to allocate to physical abilities. Both will go with a 16 Str because they are frontline combatants who need to deal melee damage. Now the fighter can plan on wearing full plate and spend 4 points on Dex to get a 12 and 5 on Con to get a 13 and be happy. The barbarian wants to maximize his AC too but is limited to medium armor so he will be going with a breastplate. He decides to spend 6 points of Dex and 3 on Con. Guess what, now the barbarian has AC 2 points lower and he gains no hit point advantage over the fighter. Not to mention the fighter has a better Fort save. What a raw deal! Of course the barbarian will often be raging, but that just worsens his AC. With as often as he's going to get hit those extra hp might not matter.
I think the OP's problem is that his PCs simply don't value a truly high AC as much as they could. I've played the heavy armor, sword n board wielding, combat expertising, dodging, mobilitizing fighter before and being unhittable except on that rare '20' is a nice feeling of comfort, one that doesn't come easily without wearing heavy armor.
From my perspective, a good heavy-armor fighter or paladin is a valuable asset. Let's say you are building from a 25 point-buy. You are considering either a barbarian or a fighter. You have the wherewithal to not want to stick any points into the "wasted" ability scores like Int, Wis, and Cha, well, maybe a 12 Wis to help prevent domination. So that leaves 21 points to allocate to physical abilities. Both will go with a 16 Str because they are frontline combatants who need to deal melee damage. Now the fighter can plan on wearing full plate and spend 4 points on Dex to get a 12 and 5 on Con to get a 13 and be happy. The barbarian wants to maximize his AC too but is limited to medium armor so he will be going with a breastplate. He decides to spend 6 points of Dex and 3 on Con. Guess what, now the barbarian has AC 2 points lower and he gains no hit point advantage over the fighter. Not to mention the fighter has a better Fort save. What a raw deal! Of course the barbarian will often be raging, but that just worsens his AC. With as often as he's going to get hit those extra hp might not matter.
I think the OP's problem is that his PCs simply don't value a truly high AC as much as they could. I've played the heavy armor, sword n board wielding, combat expertising, dodging, mobilitizing fighter before and being unhittable except on that rare '20' is a nice feeling of comfort, one that doesn't come easily without wearing heavy armor.
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