Space Coyote
First Post
Hawken said:
Thanks Hawken! That' sort of what I was looking for. That gives my players and I something to discuss. The "Armor gives DR" seems like a pretty good answer. Thanks all!
Help me convince my players to wear heavy armor.
- Thread starter Space Coyote
- Start date
Thanks Hawken! That' sort of what I was looking for. That gives my players and I something to discuss. The "Armor gives DR" seems like a pretty good answer. Thanks all!
Machiavelli
First Post
Actually, it comes VERY easily. Just drop some gp on some bracers and such. Voila! Now you have the options and class abilities open to doing all sorts of interesting things, including spell-casting.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Had a tought this morning on this topic.. would have posted it earlier but this is the first time I was able to get back online. I see Hawken included a similar thought.
The concept of armor working as protection against critical hits is a good theme... but reducing the multiplier or threat range is a bit drastic.
A passing thought was to grant a Fortification type effect of +5% for medium armors and +10% for heavy armors.. but that thought passed by pretty quickly. Not only does it mean an extra roll but its a very small chance....so ditch this idea
The recent thought that wandered in is pretty simple:
The bonus to AC from the material armor and shields, not magical enhancements, is doubled against a critical confirmation roll.
While not a huge edge, the extra +8 to AC can definately be worth it. Quite literally this is something that could save your characters life. Its not too much of a change to the system and can be used fairly across the board.
The concept of armor working as protection against critical hits is a good theme... but reducing the multiplier or threat range is a bit drastic.
A passing thought was to grant a Fortification type effect of +5% for medium armors and +10% for heavy armors.. but that thought passed by pretty quickly. Not only does it mean an extra roll but its a very small chance....so ditch this idea
The recent thought that wandered in is pretty simple:
The bonus to AC from the material armor and shields, not magical enhancements, is doubled against a critical confirmation roll.
While not a huge edge, the extra +8 to AC can definately be worth it. Quite literally this is something that could save your characters life. Its not too much of a change to the system and can be used fairly across the board.
airwalkrr
Adventurer
Machiavelli said:
Bracers of armor +8 = 64,000 gp
+5 full plate = 26,650 gp
Guess which one gives you higher armor class. Hint: it isn't the more expensive one. Is it not ironic that I can buy +5 full plate and a +5 heavy shield for LESS than bracers of armor +8 and get more than TWICE the AC bonus? Doesn't help me against incorporeal attacks you say? No problem. I'll add on the ghost touch ability to my armor. Oh look, my AC against incorporeal touch attacks is now BETTER than it would have been if I had been wearing the bracers of armor +8, and I'm STILL saving money.
Heavy armor rocks.
The only drawback to this is that you have to allow the same for weapons made of the same materials. By this logic, an adamantite sword is going to have a big whopping bonus to confirming critical threat rolls against anyone not wearing adamantite armor! This premise just opens up a whole new can of worms without solving the main concern about heavy armor.
The idea of armor reducing critical threat range and damage is flawed. According to that idea, the armor is affecting the capabilities of the sword, which armor does not do. Armor protects the wearer from damage, it may reduce the effectiveness of a sword attack (for example), but it should in no way interfere with the function of the sword--which is what the proposal to reduce threat range/damage does.
Just going to play Devil's Advocate here a bit:
Don't forget to add in the extra 25,170 for your +5 heavy steel shield. For a total of 51,820gp. If you add on Ghost Touch (and you did say add, instead of change to +2 with ghost touch), this brings your armor to a whopping 65,650gp, plus your shield, 25,170gp, makes it 90,820gp. You could stop there, but if you had deep enough pockets, you'd want to ghost touch your shield as well, making it 64,170gp, and your overall total to 129,820gp!
Yes, you would have a +20 bonus to AC against corporeal and incorporeal attacks (+8 full plate, +2 shield, +5 bonus for each). But you would also be out enough gold to wreck the economy of a small or medium sized country as well as suffering a -6 armor check penalty (-12 to Swim checks), have a max Dexterity bonus of +1, a 40% arcane spell failure chance, movement reduced to 20' (if you're Medium), run reduced to X3 and 65# of weight carried around. He could have a +1 Dex bonus to AC, for a total AC of +21 against corporeal and incorporeal attacks, but otherwise an AC of +11 against touch attacks, +20 against flat footed.
Let's say your schmoe with the bracers is a wizard. For those bracers, he's either very lucky to find them or powerful enough to make them. We'll go with powerful. So, those 64,000gp bracers, now only cost 32,000gp since he can make them himself. Let's say, he's insecure still, so he makes an Amulet of Natural Armor +5, cost 25,000gp, for a total so far of 57,000gp and a +13 bonus to AC. That's still not enough, so he makes a Ring of Protection +5, 25,000gp for making it himself. So far, his bonus is now +18 to AC with a cost of 82,000gp. Now, this wizard just happens to be an elf (Dex 20/+5) who happens to also make Gloves of Dexterity +6 (now Dex 26/+8), for a paltry 18,000gp. This brings his total AC to +26, with only 100,000gp out of pocket. With some pocket change left over, the wizard creates a wondrous item, perhaps a cloak, with the Shield spell on it. This costs 1,000gp (caster lvl 1 X spell level 1 X 2,000gp X.5 for making it himself), gives a +4 shield bonus to AC, also good against incorporeal, and immunity to Magic Missiles. His AC is now +30, having spent 101,000gp. Assuming this wizard has a budget on par with the armored guy from above, he could shuck out another 18,000gp for a Periapt of Wisdom +6 which makes his above average Wisdom (14/+2) bumped up higher (20/+5). Having gained enough power as a spellcaster, our elven wizard settles to a more aesthetic lifestyle, becoming a Monk, where his new training grants him a bonus to his AC equal to his Wisdom modifier (+5). Our paranoid, elven wizard/monk has now spent 119,000gp (10,820gp less than the warrior above), has a final bonus to AC of +35, +30 against touch (and incorporeal) attacks, +27 if flat-footed, has at least a move of 30', run of X4 (X5 if he took the Run feat), protection from Magic Missiles, no arcane spell failure and no significant weight carried around. AC is incredibly better all around with no restrictions on mobility or spellcasting, and for over 10K less than what Mr. Armor above forked out. And if they had to walk the plank, one would sink, the other would swim (or fly away, or levitate, or teleport, or polymorph, etc., etc.). I've left out Dodge and other feats and things that could be acquired equally by either side to mundanely boost AC even further.
Both examples are in the extremes, but the point was to show that while armor can rock, it doesn't out-rock.
Some very good advices had been given here, but beside changing the rules you can simply modify the goods in themselves, by making new amors or modify those already existing, and doing the same with materials and armor magical abilities.
Or even change the rules AND the armors.
Example: consider that each armor has a 1/2-AC-bonus/- base DR, that adamantine offers +1/2-base-AC-bonus and +1/2-base-DR and that the adamantine effect can stack with the magical bonus that can itself be higher than +5 without becoming Epic.
A normal full-plate would offer +8 AC and 4/- DR, an adamantine full-plate would go for +12 AC and 6/- DR for 16,500 GP and a +10 adamantine full-plate would be +22 AC and 6/- DR under normal condition and still +12 AC and the same DR when in an antimagic field for 116,500 GP.
Nice, me say.
Of course, in any classic situation it would be broken but as your players seem to distate armors you have to make them alluring for them to break their habit.
And even if it becomes a true mountyhall then you can still decrease the power of armors step by step until you reach a point that you and your players judge fitting.
Or even change the rules AND the armors.
Example: consider that each armor has a 1/2-AC-bonus/- base DR, that adamantine offers +1/2-base-AC-bonus and +1/2-base-DR and that the adamantine effect can stack with the magical bonus that can itself be higher than +5 without becoming Epic.
A normal full-plate would offer +8 AC and 4/- DR, an adamantine full-plate would go for +12 AC and 6/- DR for 16,500 GP and a +10 adamantine full-plate would be +22 AC and 6/- DR under normal condition and still +12 AC and the same DR when in an antimagic field for 116,500 GP.
Nice, me say.
Of course, in any classic situation it would be broken but as your players seem to distate armors you have to make them alluring for them to break their habit.
And even if it becomes a true mountyhall then you can still decrease the power of armors step by step until you reach a point that you and your players judge fitting.
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Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Hawken said:
Agreed, which is why I dropped the idea....
Hawken said:
Disagreed. When I typed 'material' I meant the base AC bonus... quess I should have said that. Special materials rules, such as for adamantine, are not affected or included in this. The rule is simply that the more physical armor you wear, the less likely it is that you will sustain a critical injury.
Its close to the suggestion of adding a DR ability to the existing armor stats, but only affects critical hits. Additionally you don't have to answer the question of 'Why does my Barbarian not gain the same benefit from plate mail that a Fighter does?'
- Remember, DR doesn't stack...it overlaps
I think your layout of extreme bracer paranoid build does a good job of showing that given enough money and magic, a character can be built to be very very good at one thing....
...and that armor is indeed the less likely approach in a game that fits the default, high magic, world. If heavy armor is to be an attractive option, one needs to reduce the magic level in the game and provide a minor benefit to the heavy armors beyond the typical AC boost.
IMO, my suggested HR is a simple and clean way to boost the attractiveness of heavy armors while not making them the 'must have' items of brokenness.
Its one easy change to a mechanic already in place. No changes to material, no changes to equipment listings. In play a simple {AC +8 vs Crits} could be added to the side of a plate mail wearing character's sheet.
In this case I would house rule an overlap. A barbarian's DR is a natural benefit of his class. Something about him personally that he develops. The DR from adamantite plate (for example) is external. Damage from an incoming attack has to get through the DR of the plate before it even reaches the barbarian, then, to damage him, it has to get past his own DR. Basically, I'm saying that logically, any DR X/-- should stack. But DR X/Y should overlap.
The only thing I don't like about this is, say the guy in plate has an AC of 24. The attacker scores a critical threat. Instead of having to confirm on a 24 or better, he suddenly has to confirm on a 32 or better. If you base the bonus off of the DR value (DR = 1/2 AC value), then the critical threat has to confirm only on a 28 or higher. That's a significant bonus without such a great leap in protection. And remember the DR is still in place even if the crit is confirmed, and even more effective if you have the DR value count against each die rolled for the critical damage (DR 4, crit w/longsword is 1D8 X2 or 2D8, have the DR 4 count against each D8 die roll).
airwalkrr
Adventurer
Hawken said:
I forgot ghost touch was a +3 enchancement (thought it was +1 for some reason). It makes no difference. Let's suppose the cleric is wearing +3 ghost touch full plate and has a +2 ghost touch heavy shield (total price tage of 62,820 gp). He is still spending less than he would on bracers of armor +8 (price tage of 64,000 gp).
Hawken said:
This example is quite extreme. It also proves absolutely nothing because most of these are tricks a cleric can pull. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. A cleric can have craft magic arms & armor and craft wondrous as easily as the wizard. I should also point out that a wizard cannot make amulets of natural armor or rings of protection because he lacks the prerequisite spells (barkskin and shield of faith). But just for argument's sake, let's say your example works (although things like a cloak that grants shield might not be allowed by the DM). My cleric is still better. Here's why. The equipment of a fully equiped cleric, using only the core rules and assuming an elite array of ability scores (to make it fair):
+2 ghost touch mithril full plate - 35,650 gp or 23,150 gp to craft
+5 heavy steel shield - 25,170 gp or 12,670 gp to craft
+5 amulet of natural armor - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (if he has the Plant domain)
+5 ring of protection - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft
+6 gloves of dexterity - 36,000 gp or 18,000 gp to craft (if he has the Celerity domain)
Total cost: 196,820 gp or 103,820 gp to craft
Total AC assuming base Dex of 10: 40, touch 18, flat-footed 37, incorporeal 28
Now here is the wizard, also using only the core rules:
+8 bracers of armor - 64,000 gp or 32,000 gp to craft
shield spell - no cost
+5 amulet of natural armor - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (we assume the party cleric or druid casts barkskin for him)
+5 ring of protection - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (we assume the party cleric casts shield of faith for him)
+6 gloves of dexterity - 36,000 gp or 18,000 gp to craft
Total cost: 200,000 gp or 100,000 gp to craft
Total AC assuming base Dex of 16 (elf): 38, touch 21, flat-footed 32, incorporeal 33
The only way our wizard is even managing to be competitive with the cleric in these categories is by casting shield, which usually takes at least a swift action to cast and at high levels is not always the best choice in combat. Even still, his base AC and flat-footed AC are worse than the cleric's. Not to mention we are assuming the wizard has someone to cast barkskin and shield of faith for him. The cleric has a higher walking AC than the wizard, and that doesn't even count the fact that he can cast magic vestment on his full plate to make it +5, giving him an even bigger advantage.
Heavy armor is better nine times out of ten. If you DM allows you to have godlike ability scores and you are willing to sacrifice a spellcaster level, be lawful, and spend resources on an ability score that otherwise grants you little benefit like Wisdom, then you can take a level of monk as a wizard and be competitive with the heavy armor wearer, but it requires resources and a huge opportunity cost (a lost caster level) which most spellcasters simply won't make.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Hawken said:
I don't particularly like the DR option..and think that the +8 vs confirming a critical is just as good a mechanic as +4 vs crit *and* DR 4.. you end up negating about the same amount of damage.
Adding a DR vs each dice makes Platemail too good....IMHO of course.
Since I am a fan of minimal changes to the RAW {easier to remember and explain}, I think the +AC bonus vs crits will become part of my HR set.
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