Help Me Design a Better Multiclass System

[Stalker0]

That latest idea PS had seems pretty good. So does that apply to all classes or just nonspellcasting ones?

EG. While a Ftr18/Wiz2 = CL3, does a Cleric18/Wiz2 have a CL of 18,19,20 for his cleric spells?

 

[Plane Sailing]

That latest idea PS had seems pretty good. So does that apply to all classes or just nonspellcasting ones?

EG. While a Ftr18/Wiz2 = CL3, does a Cleric18/Wiz2 have a CL of 18,19,20 for his cleric spells?

Applied on a class by class basis, so

Clr18/Wiz2 has a caster level 19 for his cleric spells and caster level 3 for his wizard spells (thus knows up to 2nd level wizard spells and 9th level cleric spells, but has less of the top slots than a 20th cleric.

(A Clr18/Rog2 would also have caster level 19 for determining his cleric spells as well of course).

The half other level rounds down, so a Clr19/Wiz1 would still only be caster level 19 for his cleric spells, while getting caster level 2 for his wizard spells.

I've seen people say that paladin/clerics are a very bad multiclass. Under this system a pal4/clr16 would end up casting as an 18th Cleric and a 6th Paladin

Cheers

 

[airwalkrr]

I have to say, PS, that I REALLY like that system. It is a lot better than the magic rating rules. I think I may just have to yoink it.

 

[MarauderX]

These aren't bad ideas. I've helped a bit with a local guy's attempt at a "classless" d20 system. Personally however, I really like archetypes, and the D&D class system enforces that, so I'd like to keep it. I would probably play GURPS if I wanted a classless system since it does that very well.

Yeah, I've half-finished the core rules to simplify feats, skills, etc. on a point-buy scale. GURPS is nice, but doesn't fit what I'm trying to do either.

www.mxpb.wikispaces.com

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, when my friends and I were coming up with a homebrew, we decided the solution to this was to make the core classes EASIER to multiclass (BAB fractions add, etc.), but make all magic be a Prestige Class ability. Specifically, three Prestige classes, each requiring only a Feat that gives you a bit of cantrip-level magic (so it's a feat some non-casters might want anyway). Certain aspects of the spellcasting were bumped up to compensate, like caster level and ray-spell BAB were replaced by ranks in a new skill, Manifestation; since it's a skill, you can easily spend the points to make up for the non-mage levels. Since there were two or three new magic-related skills, each magic class got 2 extra skill points per level.

The other thing to note was that when you first took a level of a magic class, you declared what your "base" mundane class was, and you kept certain aspects of that class (like the skill list, some of the skill points, etc.). So, if you were a Rogue-type who decided to take some Wizard levels, you'd still have Hide/Move Silently as class skills and more skill points than someone who came from a Fighter background. End result: you had a lot more people mixing in a few levels of caster classes, or just using the Feat, but you didn't have the "pure" caster type you see now.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you rewrite the system as thoroughly as we did; I'm just saying that I think most of the current multiclassing headaches are directly tied to the all-or-nothing nature of the current mage classes.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I've seen people say that paladin/clerics are a very bad multiclass. Under this system a pal4/clr16 would end up casting as an 18th Cleric and a 6th Paladin

Sorry, didn't notice a second page in this thread, and so I'll be double-posting:

Long, long ago, one of the first house rules my group added was that the paired pure/hybrid caster classes could combine better. That was Bard+Sorcerer, Ranger+Druid, Paladin+Cleric, or PsychicWarrior/Psion under 3E.

Caster levels added directly. Spell slots were in a common pool (but this meant you only got your bonus for high stat once.) Spell lists combined, limited by the class levels involved; that is, a Paladin 16/Cleric 4 would combine all the spells a Paladin 16 could cast with all those a Cleric 4 could, meaning no high-level stuff, and he could only swap 1st or 2nd-level spells for heals. Other class abilities wouldn't combine unless both classes gave it separately (like Turn Undead).

Anyway, it worked really well, although in 3.5E it wouldn't work for the psionic classes anymore (since PsyW use WIS and Psions use INT). Of course, we had also added that Paladins and Monks could freely multiclass with your racial favored class, as long as Pal/Mnk remained the highest level.

 

[airwalkrr]

Well, when my friends and I were coming up with a homebrew, we decided the solution to this was to make the core classes EASIER to multiclass (BAB fractions add, etc.), but make all magic be a Prestige Class ability. Specifically, three Prestige classes, each requiring only a Feat that gives you a bit of cantrip-level magic (so it's a feat some non-casters might want anyway). Certain aspects of the spellcasting were bumped up to compensate, like caster level and ray-spell BAB were replaced by ranks in a new skill, Manifestation; since it's a skill, you can easily spend the points to make up for the non-mage levels. Since there were two or three new magic-related skills, each magic class got 2 extra skill points per level.

The other thing to note was that when you first took a level of a magic class, you declared what your "base" mundane class was, and you kept certain aspects of that class (like the skill list, some of the skill points, etc.). So, if you were a Rogue-type who decided to take some Wizard levels, you'd still have Hide/Move Silently as class skills and more skill points than someone who came from a Fighter background. End result: you had a lot more people mixing in a few levels of caster classes, or just using the Feat, but you didn't have the "pure" caster type you see now.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you rewrite the system as thoroughly as we did; I'm just saying that I think most of the current multiclassing headaches are directly tied to the all-or-nothing nature of the current mage classes.

I like the prospect of such a system and I'm certain it would work. However I'm an old dog and such a system would just not feel like D&D to me; it would feel like a new trick which is hard on us old dogs.

 

[airwalkrr]

Caster levels added directly. Spell slots were in a common pool (but this meant you only got your bonus for high stat once.) Spell lists combined, limited by the class levels involved; that is, a Paladin 16/Cleric 4 would combine all the spells a Paladin 16 could cast with all those a Cleric 4 could, meaning no high-level stuff, and he could only swap 1st or 2nd-level spells for heals. Other class abilities wouldn't combine unless both classes gave it separately (like Turn Undead).

Now that idea I really like. I might have to yoink it. Thanks.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I like the prospect of such a system and I'm certain it would work. However I'm an old dog and such a system would just not feel like D&D to me; it would feel like a new trick which is hard on us old dogs.

You're partially right. It DIDN'T feel like "classic" D&D. The problem is, we realized we hadn't been playing stock D&D for a long time as it was; our House Rules were pretty extensive, so it wasn't much of a stretch to just write a similar system that fit our philosophy and was balanced a bit better. Under our system, pretty much every player had at least a little magic ability, but even the most caster-oriented characters still used swords and wore light armor.

See, we originally had intended this system to be a magic expansion of D20Modern, and it was meant to build off their six base classes. For instance, if the magic class gave bonus Feats, you could select from your base class's Feat list. In a modern environment, the mages would still carry guns and so on, so we balanced it a bit differently than how core D&D does. Most magic was more about buffing and utility than raw damage, so when we switched it back to the D&D setting, that meant that the mages had to be able to still rely on armor/weapons. It was still balanced; the very act of being a mage made you more vulnerable to magic, and you'd never be as good with a sword as a fighter-type.

I should note that the three magic classes were Wizard (WIS-based "slot" caster, a lot like a Cleric), Channeler (A psion-based INT caster that spends HP to cast), and Mutant (class with lots of inherent boosts and spell-like abilities, based on the Hero from 4CTF). So, to be fair, the Fighter types tended to take Mutant levels, and wouldn't be anything like the classic Wizard archetype, and the Channelers by their natures had to be a bit more durable than a d4 hit die (they were more like Psychic Warriors).

 

[Pyske]

I think Plane Sailing's system is awesome, and very elegant in it's simplicity.

In fact, it has inspired a character idea for me, using a blended caster: a psion who briefly glimpses a divine intellect, and becomes obsessed with the ideas of "fate" and the "divine plan". Seems like it couldbe fun to explore these concepts in a polytheistic world.

I'm thinking the character would start out as an ardent / cleric with a specialty in divination. Divine Oracle seems the closest prestige class to the concept.

Do you think this character would be appropriately balanced, using this system?

I'm curious to see how the system works out when combined with a third class, particularly a prestige class.