Help Me Design a Better Multiclass System

[airwalkrr]

Expounding on this idea a little more, a Ftr10/Wiz10 would functionally be a 15th-level character. He would not be as good of a fighter as a Ftr15 obviously, but 10d10 hp and a BAB of +10 is better than what a Wiz15 would have. Plus, he would be benefitting from the higher of his saves in the two classes. So his saving throws would be +7/+3/+7 as opposed to the Ftr15 who has +9/+5/+5 and the Wiz15 who has +5/+5/+9. Overall his saving throws are worse, but that is because he has neglected to specialize in one and neither Fort nor Will is as much of a weakness, although Ref certainly is.

Also, some exceptions would have to be made to the class type rule (or maybe not). If a paladin becomes neutral good and stops leveling as a paladin, it would probably be acceptable to allow him to level as a fighter, either stacking his fighter levels on top of his paladin levels as per current 3e multiclass rules, or making them unassociated levels until his fighter levels catch up to his paladin levels. A Pal10 who falls, would hence be a 15th level character (Ftr10/Pal10) before progressing in HD again. Rather brutal in a way since all he is really retaining is his paladin skill points so probably not the best way to go. At any rate, some mechanic would need to allow for classes that don't let you go back to continue filling the same role if the character so desires.

 

[airwalkrr]

[shameless bump] I'm really interested in what people think of this idea. Thoughts?

 

[airwalkrr]

I got to thinking about weaknesses of the system I outlined above. It accomplishes one of my main goals quite well. It makes leveling in two classes simultaneously challenging but viable with other characters, while leveling in three simultaneously is very difficult, but still possible if the character is careful. According to my calculations, but 20th level, you could have a Ftr20, a Ftr14/Wiz12, or a Ftr10/Rog10/Wiz10. The biggest problem I see has to do with hit points. A character with hp of a 14th level character will have less staying power against a CR 20 creature than a character with hp of a 20th level character.

To account for this problem, let's use the following rule: You only roll HD for a class if it is your highest level class after you level (so a Ftr5/Wiz4 could roll HD if his next level was fighter but not wizard). However, for each class you have that is not your highest level class, you always get to raise your hp by at least 1. Suppose our Ftr5/Wiz4 gains a wizard level. He rolls 1d4 and compares it to his HD roll for his 5th level of Fighter. If his roll is higher, he keeps that roll. However, this is unlikely. So even if he doesn't roll higher, he always gains at least 1 hp (no Con modifier to add to this however since he isn't gaining a HD). So a Ftr7/Wiz6 (the equivalent of a 10th level character) rolling average every time would have 49 hp without accounting for a Con modifier while a Ftr10 would have 59. Assuming both have a Con of 14, the Ftr7/Wiz6 would have 63 hp while the Ftr10 would have 79 hp. So the Ftr10 maintains a +3 edge in BAB, a +2 edge in Fort, +1 edge in Ref, -3 deficiency in Will, +16 edge in hp, and +3 edge in feats (one from 9th and two fighter bonus feats). However the Ftr7/Wiz6 has access to 3rd level spells and a bunch of wizard skill points to put to use, plus two wizard bonus feats. That seems pretty balanced to me. Obviously our fighter/wizard won't be getting into melee as often as our Ftr10, but he will do far better in melee in a pinch than our Wiz10 and won't have to rely on spells as his only means of solving problems.

Comparing this to a RAW multiclass fighter/wizard (Ftr5/Wiz5), this new one has a few edges. +1 caster level for wizard spells. 2 extra levels worth of skill points for fighter levels and 1 extra level worth of skill points for wizard levels. An extra bonus fighter feat (although the 9th level feat the RAW character gets kind of cancels that out). They have about the same hp and saving throws. It isn't a massive benefit, but it is still a considerable benefit.

Hmm, so let me compare a Ftr1/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight10 to an equivalent 16th level character. The eldritch knight has 57 base hp, +10 base Fort, +4 base Ref, +7 base Will, CL 14, +13 BAB, 2 fighter bonus feats, 2 wizard bonus feats, 16 levels worth of skills, a 5th level familiar, and 6 base feats.

A Ftr4/Wiz14 under my system (attempting to match the CL here), would have 55 base hp, +4 base Fort, +4 base Ref, +9 base Will, CL 14, +7 BAB, 3 fighter bonus feats, 3 bonus wizard feats, 18 levels worth of skills, a 14th level familiar, and 5 base feats.

However, if I try to make the levels even, I wind up with a Ftr11/Wiz10, who has 75 base hp,
+7 base Fort, +3 base Ref, +7 base Will, CL 10, +11 BAB, 6 fighter bonus feats, 3 wizard bonus feats, 21 levels worth of skills, a 10th level familiar, and 4 base feats.

If we assume a 14 Con, the eldritch knight catches up hp-wise by 10, but it is still not enough to overtake our new hypothetical character. So you trade 4 caster levels, +2 BAB, +3 base Fort, +1 base Ref, and 2 base feats to get 8 more hp, 4 more fighter feats, 1 more wizard feat, 5 levels worth of skills, and 10 levels worth of familiar. Worth it?

Suppose the cost for the LA was three levels in another class instead of two. Then a Ftr12/Wiz12 would be equivalent under the proposed system to our eldritch knight, improving our hp margin, lowering our caster level, BAB, and saving throw margins, improving our base and bonus feats, improving our skills, and improving our familiar. Now that is definitely worth it I think. But too powerful maybe? Is a 12th level character with the abilities of a Ftr12/Wiz12 (using the better of saving throws, BAB, and hp rather than stacking levels) equivalent in power to a 16th level character? I think it sounds pretty fair.

The more I think about this system, the more I like it. Any thoughts?

 

[dagger]

Can you type out exactly what your system entails? I'm kinda confused.......

 

[airwalkrr]

Sorry. This thread has really just been a bunch of rambling out loud. I'm really just brainstorming. But here's the gist.

I am envisioning a system in which gaining levels in different classes is different from just stacking them all on top of each other like 3e does. Things like BAB, saving throws, and hit dice would no longer stack, you'd just use the highest of your classes. Instead, multiclassing simply gives you class abilities (spells, special abilities, skill points, and so on), but at a lower XP opportunity cost than the current system. The idea is that for every three levels you gain in classes other than your highest level class, you get a level adjustment of +1 (which affects the rate at which you earn XP). This would mean a Ftr12/Wiz12 would have a LA of +4 and be equivalent to a 16th level character. (Ftr12 counts as 12 levels, plus one third of the wizard levels [4] equals 16.)

Yes, it's reminiscent of AD&D (I apologize if you hate AD&D). But I find it far superior to requiring a prestige class like eldritch knight just to be a good warrior-mage. Plus, it appeals to the simulationist in me which finds this a more realistic method of advancing in abilities.

 

[DreamChaser]

Yes, it's reminiscent of AD&D (I apologize if you hate AD&D). But I find it far superior to requiring a prestige class like eldritch knight just to be a good warrior-mage. Plus, it appeals to the simulationist in me which finds this a more realistic method of advancing in abilities.

The greatest problem with this system is not that it is too similar to AD&D but rather that it completely reverses the muliclass power balance. In 3.x multiclassing is very effective with combat types and not so effective with spellcasters. In your system, there is no real reason to multiclass unless you are a warrior caster. Who wouldn't want all the class abilities of a 12 level monk (decent HP, BAB, awesome saves, and a range of excellent combat options) coupled with the spellcasting ability of a 12th level wizard or sorcerer? This character is far superior to a fighter 12/monk 12, barbarian 12/ranger 12 or just about any combo that does not include full spell casting; not to mention it is more powerful than any 16th level character of a single class.

Which of course was the problem with AD&D multiclassing. Why on earth wouldn't you do it (since single classed characters were typically so much weaker) and why on earth wouldn't you make sure to include a spellcasting class?

DC

 

[dagger]

I like your idea, but I like to read some accounts of it in play.

 

[airwalkrr]

This character is far superior to a fighter 12/monk 12, barbarian 12/ranger 12 or just about any combo that does not include full spell casting; not to mention it is more powerful than any 16th level character of a single class.

I might challenge that statement a bit. A Ftr12/Mnk12 is a pretty powerful melee combatant. Not as focused in one fighting style, but he would always have more options in battle. Your BAB is as good as that of a Mnk16, and you can have WF, GWF, WS and GWS with unarmed strike, all while getting several other fighter bonus feats and having a few more skill points than a Mnk16 or a Ftr16. In the case of the Ftr16 you are trading mainly hp and two more bonus feats (plus the 15th level feat). In the case of the Mnk16 you are trading for several powerful higher order monk abilities. I don't think either of these are worth sneezing at. Especially if you allow high level fighter feats from sources like PH2.

Plus, consider the primary strengths of each class of a warrior-mage. One primary strengths of a fighter is wearing heavy armor, which is now a liability since it hampers your spellcasting ability and spells like mage armor and shield don't quite make up for it. Your other strength of high hp is diluted. Thus, a Ftr12/Wiz12 is never going to be able to get into melee as well as the Ftr16 (and has three less options: i.e. two fighter bonus feats and the 15th level feat), and is never going to be as good of a spellcaster as the Wiz16 (who gets both 7th and 8th level spells like limited wish and horrid wilting while you are limited to disintegrate and cone of cold). Not to mention the necessity of having to water down your ability scores. A Ftr16 might start with Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8 and a Wiz 16 Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 10, but a Ftr12/Wiz12 would have to balance his scores with something like Str 15, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8. Strength does little to help a wizard while Intelligence does little to help a fighter (save for CE), but both are almost required for the multiclass build.

Which of course was the problem with AD&D multiclassing. Why on earth wouldn't you do it (since single classed characters were typically so much weaker) and why on earth wouldn't you make sure to include a spellcasting class?

I guess I just never saw it that way. I usually played a wizard in AD&D (and occassionally a priest). I tried an elf fighter/mage once and didn't like it as much because it took a seemingly interminable amount of time to get my higher level spells. In my proposed variant, it would take even longer since you would wind up being several levels behind the other party members as opposed to one or two like in AD&D.

 

[airwalkrr]

Here is a sample Ftr16, Ftr12/Mnk12, Ftr12/Wiz12, Mnk16, and Wiz16.

Regdar
NG Human Ftr16
Init +5; Senses Listen +12, Spot +12
Languages Common
AC 34, touch 14, flat-footed 33; Dodge, Mobility
hp 172
Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +11
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +5 bastard sword +27/+22/+17/+12 (1d10+16)
Ranged +5 composite longbow +21/+16/+11/+6 (1d8+12)
Base Atk +16; Grp +23
Atk Options Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Spring Attack
Abilities Str 25, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Greater Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Greater Weapon Specialization (bastard sword), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
Skills Intimidate +18, Listen +12, Spot +12
Possessions +5 full plate, +5 heavy steel shield, +5 bastard sword, +5 composite longbow (+7 Str), +6 belt of giant strength, +6 amulet of health, +3 ring of protection, +4 cloak of resistance

Martial Artist Regdar
NG Human Ftr12/Mnk12
Init +9; Senses Listen +24, Spot +24
Languages Common
AC 37, touch 27, flat-footed 37; Dodge, Mobility
hp 98
Immune normal disease, poison
Resist improved evasion
Fort +15, Ref +18, Will +20 (+22 against enchantments)
Spd 70 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+5)
Ranged shuriken +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 (1d2+5)
Base Atk +12; Grp +17
Atk Options Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, ki strike (magic, lawful), Power Attack, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist 12/day (DC 23)
Special Actions abundant step 1/day, wholeness of body (24 hp/day)
Abilities Str 20, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 8
SQ slow fall 60 ft.
Feats Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Skills Balance +22, Climb +17, Escape Artist +20, Jump +35, Listen +24, Spot +24, Swim +17, Tumble +22
Possessions +8 bracers of armor, +6 belt of giant strength, +6 periapt of wisdom, +6 gloves of Dexterity, +5 ring of protection, +5 cloak of resistance, pink rhomboid ioun stone

Arcane Regdar
NG Human Ftr12/Wiz12
Init +8; Senses Listen +8, Spot +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 21; Dodge, Mobility
hp 113
Fort +16, Ref +13, Will +15
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +3 greatsword +23/+18/+13 (2d6+13)
Ranged +2 composite longbow +18/+13/+8 (1d8+8)
Base Atk +12; Grp +18
Atk Options Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Spring Attack
Spells Prepared
6th-3
5th-4
4th-4
3rd-5
2nd-6
1st-6
0-4
Abilities Str 22, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ toad familiar
Feats Alertness (if familiar is within 5 ft.), Blind-Fight, Cleave, Dodge, Empower Spell, Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Skills Concentration +18, Decipher Script +21, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (the planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +15, Listen +8, Spellcraft +23, Spot +8
Possessions +8 bracers of armor, +3 greatsword, +2 composite longbow (+6 Str), +6 belt of giant strength, +6 headband of intellect, +4 gloves of Dexterity, +4 amulet of health, +4 ring of protection, +5 cloak of resistance

Ember
LG Human Mnk16
Init +9; Senses Listen +26, Spot +26
Languages Common
AC 37, touch 29, flat-footed 37; Dodge, Mobility
hp 123
Immune normal disease, poison
Resist improved evasion; SR 26
Fort +18, Ref +20, Will +22 (+24 against enchantments)
Spd 80 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (2d8+2)
Ranged shuriken +18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (1d2+2)
Base Atk +12; Grp +13
Atk Options Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, ki strike (magic, lawful, adamantine), quivering palm (DC 25), Stunning Fist 16/day (DC 25)
Special Actions abundant step 1/day, wholeness of body (32 hp/day)
Abilities Str 14, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 8
SQ slow fall 80 ft.
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Balance +24, Jump +42, Listen +26, Spot +26, Tumble +26
Possessions +8 bracers of armor, +6 periapt of wisdom, +6 gloves of Dexterity, gauntlets of ogre power, monk's belt, +5 ring of protection, +5 cloak of resistance, pink rhomboid ioun stone, dusty rose ioun stone, pearly white spindle ioun stone

Naull
NG Human Wiz16
Init +5; Senses Listen +11, Spot +11
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
AC 28, touch 20, flat-footed 23
hp 121
Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +16
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 quarterstaff +8/+3 (1d6)
Base Atk +8; Grp +7
Spells Prepared
8th-2
7th-4
6th-4
5th-5
4th-5
3rd-6
2nd-6
1st-6
0-4
Abilities Str 8, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 12, Cha 10
SQ pseudodragon familiar
Feats Alertness (if familiar is within 5 ft.), Empower Spell, Greater Spell Focus (conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Familiar, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (conjuration), Spell Focus (evocation)
Skills Concentration +24, Knowledge (arcana) +26, Knowledge (the planes) +20, Knowledge (religion) +12, Listen +11, Spellcraft +28, Spot +11
Possessions +8 bracers of armor, +1 quarterstaff, +6 amulet of health, +6 headband of intellect, +5 gloves of Dexterity, +5 ring of protection, +5 cloak of resistance

************************

I don't see a huge disparity in power here. The multiclass characters are not vastly superior in any way since they have to split their disciplines. Nor is the fighter/monk inherently worse than the fighter/wizard. The fighter/monk has fewer defensive abilities but very similar AC and attack bonus to the monk. The only downside is hp, but improved evasion has to account for that somewhere, or the fighter/monk could get an amulet of health +6 instead of a periapt of wisdom +6 (lowers his AC, Will save, Spot and Listen, and stunning fist save DC by 3 though). Makes me think maybe you just let them roll hp every 3 levels for multiclass levels instead, since that would give the fighter/monk more hp.

 

[DreamChaser]

Okay...the power differential was not as great as I was thinking.

So how does XP work on this? Do these characters have equal XP totals. How do you gain levels in classes other than your highest?

Also, what about the Fighter 13, Wizard 11? This is also a ELA 16...of course so is 13/9 and a 14/8. It seems like there is a disparity created with the 1/4 system. A 14/8 has takes a potentially huge hit taking 9th level in his second class. He becomes a higher level character, gaining partial benefit for the class.

DC