Help Me Design a Better Multiclass System

[airwalkrr]

Okay...the power differential was not as great as I was thinking.

So how does XP work on this? Do these characters have equal XP totals. How do you gain levels in classes other than your highest?

Also, what about the Fighter 13, Wizard 11? This is also a ELA 16...of course so is 13/9 and a 14/8. It seems like there is a disparity created with the 1/4 system. A 14/8 has takes a potentially huge hit taking 9th level in his second class. He becomes a higher level character, gaining partial benefit for the class.

This is one of the bigger problems I am trying to figure out right now. The first important step was to figure out if +1 LA/3 levels of abilities was balanced. I'm pretty sure it is, possibly with a few more tweaks. For the past several days I have been working on advancement schemes. As the best case scenario, I am hoping there is a way an advancement method that makes it feasible to take only 1 level while still keeping things somewhat balanced. I'm not sure how easy that will be however. Here are some of the ideas I have had.

1) The Loose Method - For every three levels (round down) a character has in a class or classes that are not his highest level class, he gains a LA of +1. In order to gain a level in a second class, the character must earn XP equal to 1/3 of the way for his advancement to the next level of experience. If that character later goes back to earning levels in his highest level class, he does not earn the next level in that class until he has earned enough experience to advance to 1/3 of the way to level beyond the next level. For example, Regdar, a 3rd level fighter, has 3,000 xp. He needs to earn an additional 3,000 xp (or 6,000 xp total) to advance to 4th level fighter. However, once he reaches 4,000 xp, he decides he would like to earn a level as a wizard, becoming a Ftr3/Wiz1. Regdar then decides he no longer wishes to continue his wizard training and goes back to training as a fighter. He must earn 7,333 xp (1/3 the way to 5th) in order to earn his 4th level in fighter,11,666 xp to reach 5th, and so on.

2) The Tight Method - As 1), however, you round up for determining the LA. So Regdar, the Ftr3/Wiz1 at 4,000 xp, would be considered a 4th level character for purposes of XP. However, he could continue leveling up to his 2nd and 3rd level of wizard without increasing his LA.

3) Separate Experience Method - Each class has a separate experience point pool. A character can split XP evenly between classes or devote all of his XP to one class alone. In order to take a level in a new class, the character must permanently sacrifice all the experience he earned working up to his current level, and instead of gaining a new level in his highest level class, he gains a +1 LA and 1st level of experience in a new class. For every new three levels he gains in a new class, he gains an additional +1 to his LA. Basically you round up for determining LA. So when Regdar gains 6,000 xp, he would sacrifice 3,000 xp permanently to gain a level of wizard and +1 LA. He is then a Ftr3/Wiz1 with 3,000 xp in fighter and 0 XP in wizard. If he wished to gain levels in a third class, he would have to sacrifice another 3,000 xp.

4) Separate Experience Method (Loose) - As 3), except that you do not gain a +1 LA until you have at least three levels in classes other than your highest level class. In other words, round down for determing LA. So Regdar would have to sacrifice 3,000 xp once he reaches 6,000 xp level to become a Ftr3/Wiz1, but he would still be treated as a 3rd level character for purposes of XP. (I don't like this method because with self-correcting XP in 3e, the minimal payment for one level gets corrected later and it is like something for nothing.)

5) Separate Experience Method (Very Tight) - As 3), except that you round up for EACH new class the character levels in. So Regdar would have to sacrifice 3,000 XP once he reaches 6,000 XP to become a Ftr3/Wiz1 with a +1 LA, and another 3,000 XP once he reaches 6,000 XP again to become a Ftr3/Rog1/Wiz1 with a +2 LA. Under 3), he would only have a LA of +1, but Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1 would have a LA of +1.

I don't like any of these methods particularly well though. They all have problems of their own. Perhaps someone could suggest a fix?

 

[DreamChaser]

Well, I suppose one way of thinking about it is that in order for a 16 X to be equal to a 12X/12X they would need to have the same number of experience points. Otherwise, in a part of single classed and multiclassed characters, they would not actually end up equivalent.

Which means, there must be some way of equalizing these and have the system be workable.

Using excel to crunch the numbers I found that this system comes pretty damn close to even. It requires building in the idea of an experience point total that is invested in different classes.

Bob begins as a first level rogue with 0 experience points. He has the HP, Skill Points, Saves, and BAB of a 1st level rogue.

TOTAL XP = 0; AVAILABLE XP = 0, PRIME INVEST = 0, SEC INVEST = 0, ECL = 1, HP = 6

When he gains 1000 xp, he can either become a 2nd level rogue or gain another class. Lets say he decides to become a second level rogue. He invests those 1000 xp in having 2nd level in his primary class. He has the HP, Skill Points, Saves, and BAB of a 2nd level rogue.

TOTAL XP = 1000; AVAILABLE XP = 0, PRIME INVEST = 1000, SEC INVEST = 0, ECL = 2, HP = 9

Now he gains another 1000 xp. He has two options; either gain 1000 more XP to advance to 3rd level rogue or gain 1st level in another class. He chooses to invest those 1000 xp into sorcerer and becomes a 1st level sorcerer. His sorcerer Will save replaces his rogue Will save (+2 vs +0), he gains spells and a familiar. He gains additional class skills but does not gain any skill points to spend on them.

TOTAL XP = 2000; AVAILABLE XP = 0, PRIME INVEST = 1000, SEC INVEST = 1000, ECL = 2, HP = 9

Now he gains 1000 more xp and must choose again. Become level 1 in another class, become level 2 in sorcerer or save it to become level 3 in rogue. He decides to become a level 1 monk. His monk Fortitude save replaces his poor save from his other classes. He gains the monks abilities for 1st level perhaps some class skills (don't remember rogue/monk overlap) but again no skill points to spend.

TOTAL XP = 3000; AVAILABLE XP = 0, PRIME INVEST = 1000, SEC INVEST = 2000, ECL = 2, HP = 9 (by this time, his single class buddies have hit 3rd level)

When he gains another 1000 XP, he must again choose. This time he decides to become a 2nd level sorcerer. His will save increases and he gains more spells. He is now also in a position that he can raise either of his rogue or sorcerer classes next, allowing him to switch sorcerer into his primary slot.

TOTAL XP = 4000; AVAILABLE XP = 0, PRIME INVEST = 1000, SEC INVEST = 3000, ECL = 3, HP = 9 (his secondary investment has brought him to ECL +1; the cost of secondary levels is now 3000)

When he gains 2000 more experience he can choose to raise his rogue or sorcerer levels or save them to increase his monk level. He chooses to raise his rogue level. He gains HP, Skill Points, BAB, Saves, etc as a rogue.

TOTAL XP = 6000; AVAILABLE XP = 0, PRIME INVEST = 3000, SEC INVEST = 3000, ECL = 4, HP = 13


Essentially, primary class (whichever is the highest level) runs off the PHB cost. Secondary classes cost 1000 for the first 3 levels worth (to ECL +1), 3000 for the next three levels worth (to ECL +2), 6000 for the next three levels worth (to ECL +3), etc.

The flaws:

1) this can get terribly complicated.
2) no one would ever choose a wizard or sorcerer to be their primary class because this is the class that is going to determine HP. Fighter, cleric, and paladin are pretty unlikely as well because of their poor Skill Points.
2a) Do skill points and hit points get determined by which ever class takes each primary level?
2b) There is, again, no reason not to choose a wizard or sorcerer as one of your classes because you gain all the benefit (spells, familiar) without the low hit points. You do loose armor but this really only significantly impacts cleric, fighter, and paladin.
3) There are overlap levels where what happened at 3000 xp (above) comes up: the character has 4 class levels but was only a 2nd level character.

The pros:
1) Until higher levels, a character's XP total will match perfectly and at those higher levels can help to mitigate the increase potential of the mulitclassed character.
2) There is a natually built in penalty for cherry picking classes; you can end up with a character with 5 class levels and only 9 hit points.


What do you think?

DC

 

[reanjr]

NOTE: Edited to allow non casting classes to effectively multiclass with casting classes

Some ideas (unless otherwise noted, these exclude prestige classes):

Skills - skills that have ever been a class skill are always class skills (not that many people follow this rule anyway). In addition, the max rank of a skill is reduced by 1 for every class beyond the first. This gives breadth of skills, but denies depth.

Caster Level - When you have two or more classes, the classes lower in level than your primary class gain two casting levels per class level, up to 2 less than the primary class, but no lower than the level of the secondary class. Example: Cleric 2 becomes Cle2/Wiz1 (casts as Cle2/Wiz1). Once he reaches Cle2/Wiz5, he gains a bonus casting level for cleric (casting at Cle3/Wiz5). He gains another at Cle2/Wiz6 (casting as Cle4/Wiz6). After that, he would not gain bonus casting in cleric unless he raised his level in cleric. At 20th level, he could be Cle6/Wiz14 and cast as Cle12/Wiz14. Prestige classes that augment the casting of class count as taking a level in the augmented class.

Multiple Prestige Class XP penalty - Prestige class levels that are not the maximum level of the prestige class suffer XP penalties as normal for multiclassing after the first prestige class. Once a prestige class is maxed out, it no longer counts towards this limit. This promotes finishing out a prestige class and not dipping in.

 

[airwalkrr]

Not a bad system, DC. If anything it gives me some ideas.

1) this can get terribly complicated.

Yea, that is one thing that worries me about the system. 3e's current system is wonderfully simple, but fails to simulate what it would actually be like to train in multiple disciplines, screws multiclass casters, and practically begs non-casters to multiclass (every fighter should pick up a few levels of ranger and barbarian for some more skill points, feats, and rage, there just isn't a good reason not to). I want to correct these problems but still keep the system as simple as possible.

2) no one would ever choose a wizard or sorcerer to be their primary class because this is the class that is going to determine HP. Fighter, cleric, and paladin are pretty unlikely as well because of their poor Skill Points.

Yes, this is something I would specifically like to avoid, as it is also a problem with the current system. A Ftr1/Wiz1 should almost always choose his first level as fighter because he will have 10 hp at 1st level as opposed to 4. If you assume average hp rolls, this is a difference of 5 hp.

2a) Do skill points and hit points get determined by which ever class takes each primary level?

Under my system, you use the higher HD at each level except first, which is max for the first class you choose. So a Ftr6/Rog3/Wiz2 would take max hp of whichever class he had first, and would roll d10, d6, and d4 for 2nd level HD, taking the highest of the three rolls. For 3rd level HD he would roll d10 and d6, taking the highest. And for levels 4 through 6 he would only have d10. If his next level was rogue, he would roll a d6 and if it was higher than his 4th level fighter HD roll, he would use it instead.

Skills are granted at each level, much like the current system. A Ftr8/Wiz3 who had his first level as fighter would have 11 x (Int mod + 2) skill points for fighter skills with max ranks of 11 and 3 x (Int mod + 2) skill points for wizard skills with max ranks of 6. This means multiclass characters will typically have more skill points, which is the trade-off benefit they get for giving up higher order class level abilities and higher HD.

2b) There is, again, no reason not to choose a wizard or sorcerer as one of your classes because you gain all the benefit (spells, familiar) without the low hit points. You do loose armor but this really only significantly impacts cleric, fighter, and paladin.

That is one reason why I favor the system that imposes a +1 LA for your first three levels in each class. That is, a Ftr3/Sor1 would have a LA of +1, a Ftr3/Rog1/Sor1 would have a LA of +2, and so on.

3) There are overlap levels where what happened at 3000 xp (above) comes up: the character has 4 class levels but was only a 2nd level character.

This may or may not be a bad thing. If the character is treated as a 2 HD character, that means they are more susceptible to HD effects, which can often be a very bad thing. Cloudkill, color spray, and so forth become more dangerous to multiclass characters.

The pros:
1) Until higher levels, a character's XP total will match perfectly and at those higher levels can help to mitigate the increase potential of the mulitclassed character.
2) There is a natually built in penalty for cherry picking classes; you can end up with a character with 5 class levels and only 9 hit points.

What do you think?

DC

I'm not sure I want to penalize multiclass characters by limiting their hp THAT much, but I do like that it matches other characters' XP totals.

 

[airwalkrr]

I've been thinking out other aspects of the multiclass rules in this thread, and it has led me to what I believe may be the solution, at least for me and my games. So that you don't have to read the entire thread to know what I'm talking about, the gist is that some class abilities at level 1 are dropped if the character takes a first level in that class at any time after 1st level (i.e. multiclassing into those classes).

My house rules for the game already include a number of adjustments that spread out class abilities so that practically every character class has abilities that get better as you level. For example, my house rule cleric gets turn undead 1/day and one domain at 1st level (the rationale being that these are both very powerful abilities and that. At 4th level, and every four levels after that, the cleric gains one additional turn undead per day (2/day at 4th, 3/day at 8th, 4/day at 12th, 5/day at 16th, and 6/day at 20th). At 10th and 20th level, the cleric also gains an extra domain from those his deity offers. The idea behind these rules is to encourage sticking with one character class.

Now if I were to mesh my idea of 3 multiclass levels = +1 LA and the idea of eliminating some entry level abilities for multiclass characters, a lot of problems would be solved, like the following. 1) I don't like the idea of having your first multiclass level add to your LA, but on the other hand I don't like the idea of letting a character take two multiclass levels without having an effect on his LA because that just encourages everyone to take one or two levels of dip in other class to get some skills and abilities. The XP differential can always be made up with 3e's self-correcting XP system. 2) By ditching most 1st level abilities for 1st level characters and reverting to my idea of 2 multiclass levels (instead of 3) = +1 LA, this forces characters to take at least two levels of a class to gain class abilities that provide a tangible benefit.

And now I'm just rambling again so stop me if I get confusing, but I just had another idea. Maybe I don't need to drop the first level benefits at all. Maybe the first level in a class simply costs a +1 LA all on its own. All levels after that cost +1 LA per three levels. So, for example, a Ftr1/Wiz1 would be have an LA of +1, a character level of 2, and HD of 1. A Ftr4/Wiz4 would have an LA of +2, a character level of 6, and HD of 4. A Ftr7/Wiz7 would have an LA of +3, a character level of 10, and HD of 7. A Ftr10/Wiz10 would have an LA of +4, a character level of 14, and HD of 10. A Ftr13/Wiz13 would have an LA of +5, a character level of 18, and HD of 13. A Ftr1/Rog1/Wiz1 would have an LA of +2, a character level of 3, and HD of 1. A Ftr4/Rog4/Wiz4 would have an LA of +4, a character level of 8, and HD of 4. A Ftr7/Rog7/Wiz7 would have an LA of +6, a character level of 13, and HD of 7. A Ftr10/Rog10/Wiz10 would have an LA of +8, a character level of 18, and HD of 10.

 

[airwalkrr]

Ok, I just had a thought. A pair of Ftr7s is an EL 9 encounter. Would it be safe to assume therefore that a Ftr7 offers half the effectiveness as a Ftr9? If so, could this idea be used to aid in the development of a better multiclassing system? For instance, envision a Ftr7/Wiz7. In the current incarnation of the game, such a character is an EL 14 encounter. Most people will agree however that this is not an accurate reflection of the challenge the character presents. One option is to use non-associated class levels in determining the CR. Should the character thus be considered a CR/EL 11? Under my most recently suggested system (+1 LA for first level, +1 LA/two levels after that), this is exactly the ECL of said character so therefore CR = ECL is not a big stretch. But if we use the Ftr7 + Wiz7 = CR/ECL/EL 9 approach, does that unbalance things too much? In this case a three-class character example would be Ftr6/Rog6/Wiz6 = CR/ECL/EL 9, and a four-class character would be Clr5/Ftr5/Rog5/Wiz5 = CR/ECL/EL 9. Suppose we ratcheted up the levels. Would this formula work at higher levels as well? Ftr15/Wiz15 = CR/ECL/EL 17? Ftr14/Rog14/Wiz14 = CR/ECL/EL 17? Clr13/Ftr13/Rog13/Wiz13 = CR/ECL/EL 17?

Bear in mind I am assuming a more "gestalt" type of multiclassing, not traditional 3e multiclassing where HD, BAB, saving throws, etc. stack. Just class abilities.

How would a system like this be simulated from a playter's perspective, particularly with regards to XP? The difficulty here is that a Ftr5/Wiz5 could gain 5 levels of rogue and only increase his CR/EL/ECL by 1. That makes me think maybe I'm going a little overboard.

 

[DreamChaser]

This is why the parts of the system I suggested treats all added classes equal.

A fighter 5 / wizard 5 is a 7th level chacter (going with the idea that the ECL happens with the first level and every 3 levels in a new class). Add 1 level in rogue and the character stays 7th level (5 for fighter + (5+1=6/3=2) for wizard and rogue. If he takes another level in rogue it becomes 5 (fighter) + 5+2=7/3=2.333=3 (wizard and rogue), which makes him an 8th level character. At fighter 5/wizard 5/rogue 5, he would be 5 (fighter) + 5+5=10/3=3.333=4, which makes him a 9th level character. He would have on average 33 + (5*Con Mod) Hit Points (compaired to a 9th level fighter with 54+9*Con Mod hit points).

Still a little fuzzy on how skill points work in this system. If they got the skill points from each class, this character would have, assuming an Intelligence of 14,
Fighter: (2+2=4)*4=(16+4+4+4+4) [32] + Wizard: (4+4+4+4+4) [20]+ Rogue: 10+10+10+10+10 [50] = 102
A 9th level fighter would have 48, a 9th level wizard would have 48, a 9th level rogue would have 120.

Not too bad, actually. This could work; it would be important to keep the class skill list restrictions.

DC

 

[Plane Sailing]

reposted from the thread in general:

MAB is the easiest way to go, to make no PrC based Multi-classing work, and only if in addition to determining Caster level, it also determined what level spells you could cast. Increasing Caster Level w/o allowing higher level spells is like increasing BAB w/o iterative attacks, in fact it is worse than that.

Now this is the most interesting idea that I've seen in a long time.

You don't even have to go to using a MAB, just give classes an effective caster level e.g.:

= level for full casters (wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid)
= 3/4 level for 6 spell level casters (bard)
= 1/2 level for 4 spell level casters (ranger, paladin, assassin)
= 1/4 level for noncasters (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk)

and THEN (this is the key bit), grant spells known according to *caster level* rather than class level.

Problems: a cleric 10/wiz10 would whoop ass.
Potential Solution: thus in a D&D world with separate arcane and divine spell lists, give them an arcane caster level and a divine caster level which don't stack. Paladins would give 1/2 level towards divine caster level but only 1/4 level towards arcane caster level; vice versa for Assassins. Perhaps not such an issue in an Arcana Evolved sort of world with only one spell list and type of magic?

Problems: multiclassers still outshine single classes
Potential Solution: OK, perhaps every multiclass has a primary casting focus (divine/arcane) and then you add +1/2 other levels as 'nonassociated' caster levels regardless of your class.

Thus a ftr10/wiz10 would be caster level 15 and have access to 8th level spells, a ftr3/wiz3 would be caster level 4.5 (=4?), a ftr2/Wiz4 would be caster level 5 with access to 3rd level spells. A Cleric 8/Wiz 8 would be caster level 12 and have access to 6th level wizard and cleric spells. A Ftr10/Sor10 would be caster level 15 and only have access to 7th level spells, but would get a heck of a lot of them.

Y'know, I quite like this idea. In fact I quite like this idea a lot. I think I'll discuss it with my gaming group and see if they would like to try it out in my Eberron campaign.

 

[airwalkrr]

PS, also note my reply on the disaster of unbalance this would create with a Sor10/Wiz10 or Clr10/Drd10 in the General. Nice idea though, if this can be rectified.

 

[DreamChaser]

As I suggested earlier, I really think that increasing spells per day but not spells known (or spell level cast) is the way to go.

A wiz 10/cler 10 or (wiz/sor or cler/dru) would have all the spells per day of a 20th level caster in each class (they have the mass of spell slots to allow for major versatility) but they can only cast up to 5th level spells (they lack the punch of their more focused compatriots).

The upshot of this is that Heighten Spell and some of the +3 and +4 metamagic feats would have a point.

DC