Help Me Design a Better Multiclass System

[beepeearr]

In my own games, I allow caster levels of the type of magic to stack. for instance Arcane with Arcane, Psionic with Psionic and Divine with Divine. By caster level, I am reffering to actual caster level, not the +1 level of existing spellcasting class. Basically the spells they already have become more powerful, but they wouldn't gain anything new from the class they weren't taking that level.

In addition I allow a two feats that work within this system. One allows caster types of different types of magic to stack, ie Arcane with Divine and vice versus. The other gives a class with no caster level a caster level equal to half their level in a particular type of magic. Ie a fighter 10 could have a divine caster level of 5. In addition a character that already has a caster level at half their level would be bumped up to full caster level (ie Paladins and Ranger, since the bard has full caster levels already). This feat can also be taken more than once to add caster levels to new classes or to bump up the ones you already have.

 

[Plane Sailing]

PS, also note my reply on the disaster of unbalance this would create with a Sor10/Wiz10 or Clr10/Drd10 in the General. Nice idea though, if this can be rectified.

Here is the rectification.

1. ignore my first stream-of-thought solution and go with my second one in the post above, i.e. caster level in any class = that classes caster level + half other character levels. Thus whether Sor10/Wiz10, Wiz10/Clr10, Clr10/Dru10, you have caster level 15 in each of your classes and have spells known and castable as per that. Note that for Clr10/Wiz10 this exactly mirrors what you would get with Clr5/Wiz5/Mystic Theurge10.

The problem that still remains is with grossly unequal levels. As someone put it in the other thread, it seems wrong that an 18th level fighter taking 1 level Wizard suddenly gets caster level 10 and 5th level spells. (Heck, it not only sounds wrong it IS wrong!)


So, a refinement of my rule would be called for. It seems to work OK for balanced classes (the normal typical worst case scenario) but breaks down for wildly imbalanced classes. Perhaps there could be a limit that your caster level can be no more than 50% more than your casting class level.

That leaves the 10/10 multiclass in the position that works OK, it stops the 18/1 multiclass from getting absurd... where is the effective breakpoint?
Wiz20 = CL20
Ftr2/Wiz18 = CL19
Ftr4/Wiz16 = CL18
Ftr6/Wiz14 = CL17
Ftr8/Wiz12 = CL16
Ftr10/Wiz10 = CL15
Ftr11/Wiz9 = CL14
Ftr12/Wiz8 = CL12
Ftr13/Wiz7 = CL10
Ftr14/Wiz6 = CL9
Ftr16/Wiz4 = CL6
Ftr18/Wiz2 = CL3
Ftr19/Wiz1 = CL1
Ftr20 = CL0

That looks pretty good to me.

 

[airwalkrr]

I like that last solution, PS. That seems like one of the best ideas presented yet.

 

[Lucan_Desmond]

Wiz20 = CL20
Ftr2/Wiz18 = CL19
Ftr4/Wiz16 = CL18
Ftr6/Wiz14 = CL17
Ftr8/Wiz12 = CL16
Ftr10/Wiz10 = CL15
Ftr11/Wiz9 = CL14
Ftr12/Wiz8 = CL12
Ftr13/Wiz7 = CL10
Ftr14/Wiz6 = CL9
Ftr16/Wiz4 = CL6
Ftr18/Wiz2 = CL3
Ftr19/Wiz1 = CL1
Ftr20 = CL0

In youe OP you said that you wanted multi-classing make the character more versatile, but less powerful. I'm pretty sure this is going against that. I'll just grab one line from the above post...

Ftr8/Wiz12 = CL16

Thats MORE powerful than if you just used the normal rules for multiclassing, which would look like this:

Ftr8/Wiz12 = CL12

I don't quite understand how 8 levels in Fighter got that character 4 caster levels... I don't know. All I'm saying here is that this doesn't seem like very good idea.

In youe OP you said that you wanted multi-classing make the character more versatile, but less powerful. I don't really see why you think the standard rules for multi-classing don't already accomplish that. You have to stop progressing in one level to take another. Thats versatility at the expense of power. I've always multiclassed ever since 3e came out, and I've always felt a little left behind. My DMs would always take pity on me and give me a really good magic item to help me keep up with the players that didn't multi-class.

Anyway, thats just my 2 cents.
Des

 

[Arkhandus]

I think the general impression is that the standard multiclassing rules make some characters TOO weak in exchange for a minor or modest amount of extra versatility. Certainly not in all cases; some multiclass combos are quite fine under the standard rules; but not so much with multiclass casters.

A non-caster relies on their basic offensive and defensive stats for effectiveness; HP, AC, attack bonus, and damage bonus. A caster, though, derives offense and defense mostly through their spells, and if their only spells are really low-level for someone of their character level, the caster is going to have nearly-worthless offense and defense.

If the character only dips a level or a few levels into a spellcasting class, they don't really have to worry about that much, but those who take several levels in a caster class (especially when taking them alternatingly with another class, rather than focusing primarily on one caster class first) are going to feel the loss of offensive and defensive effectiveness pretty hard.

And as they increase in character level, the extra versatility and utility benefits of their minor or intermediate spellcaster-multiclassing is going to diminish in value. The PCs will have increasingly greater access to magic items that fulfill the same purposes as those low-level spells and broadly-applied low-rank skills from multiclassing. Spider Climb and Alter Self and Invisibility and Dispel Magic and whatnot, for example, aren't so useful at the upper levels, where typical enemies are likely to surpass the character's climbing speed or fly speed or whatnot, or see through the invisibility, or resist the dispel check with its low limit on the caster's bonus. Also, at upper levels, the character could have been casting Improved/Greater/Mass Invisibility, Polymorph Any Object, Greater Dispelling, Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere, or whatnot, if only they had stayed single-classed.

Basically, yeah, I'm in the camp that says 3E multiclassing is unbalanced, on the weak side, for the most part.

 

[Lucan_Desmond]

I still feel that there is nothing wrong with the current multi-classing. If you're a caster and you start taking levels in a non caster class, then you're gaining the benefits of that class. So if that class can take care of itself (and every class can take care of itself) Then when you combine the two classes your capabilities should still be pretty balanced. If you decide to lose caster levels then you must be gaining SOMETHING else. You just need to mesh the two diciplines together so that that power can still be used.

Example: A wizard takes a level in fighter. They're now 1 level behind in caster level. But they gained +2 fort save, +1 BAB, a bonus feat, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and all armors and shields. Now they can wear armor (defense UP) and wield better weapons (offense UP).

Now many people would complain that they can't wear armor if they still want to cast spells. Not true. You might lose a spell, but just because you have SOME arcane spell failure, doesn't mean you CAN'T cast. And you can reduce that ASF with mithral armor and magical abilities like Twilight. Also, consider the Still Spell metamagic feat, because any spell without a somatic component is not subject to ASF. And just becausee you can hold a weapon doesn't mean you're good with it, right? I'd disagree, you can help that with a good selection of that bonus feat, and a greatsword still does 2d6 damage in a wizards hand. He might have some trouble hitting with it, but he definitely shouldn't be the ONLY one in melee anyway. Get a flanking bonus and/or catch someone flat-footed and you're good to go. Not to mention combining your 2 classes for a combination like true strike + bull's strngth + greatsword smack! Works pretty good. Add a Shield Spell and now you've got good offense, good defense and versatility. You can't expect to be a master at everything, if you multi-class you have to lose something, and caster level is definitely a BIG bonus that needs to be trimmed if you want more versatility.

All in all I think that if you don't like the current multi-classing system, then maybe you're trying to multi-class two or more classes that don't really compliment each other. Try combining classes that have abilities that can coincide with each other.

Later,
Des

 

[airwalkrr]

All in all I think that if you don't like the current multi-classing system, then maybe you're trying to multi-class two or more classes that don't really compliment each other. Try combining classes that have abilities that can coincide with each other.

That's the whole problem. Multiclass characters are not created equal and that's what this variant is trying to address. I have no problem with a minor variance in the effectiveness of a Ftr10/Wiz10 as compared to a Bbn10/Ftr10, but the two need to be roughly comparable. When a Ftr10/Wiz10 is only about as useful as a 15th level character while the Bbn10/Ftr10 suffers virtually no setbacks, then the system needs work.

But this is not a thread on whether multiclassing has problems or not. If you want to talk about that, go here. This thread is here to discuss the design and implementation of a new house rule. If you don't like house rules (or just this one) and don't think the system has problems, please don't post here.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Just to confirm Lucan_Desmond - if you think multiclassing is fine and needs no work, then this thread isn't the thread for you, but the thread in airwalkrrs' link might be what you are looking for (that is the thread for debating the issues)

Thanks

 

[MarauderX]

Having not read the entire thread, why not go class-less & level-less? Use something with an XP buy, like "Buy the Numbers"?

 

[airwalkrr]

Having not read the entire thread, why not go class-less & level-less? Use something with an XP buy, like "Buy the Numbers"?

These aren't bad ideas. I've helped a bit with a local guy's attempt at a "classless" d20 system. Personally however, I really like archetypes, and the D&D class system enforces that, so I'd like to keep it. I would probably play GURPS if I wanted a classless system since it does that very well.