D&D (2024) Help Me Hate Monks (Less Than I Currently Do)

What to you think a class is?
Not optional proficiencies that have nothing to do with what the class represents. The class is a set list of abilities related to the class and what it represents. There are monk class abilities that don't represent ninja class abilities, so it fails to be a ninja class unless you are willing to kludge a square peg into a round hole and settle. I'm not willing to do that.
I see it as a description of a set of powers a PC can have. It’s a model, it’s not something that exists in any real sense any more than classes exist in the real world.
Mechanics don't back that up in D&D. In D&D they are a set list of abilities that represent the class concept and everyone who takes that class anywhere in the world has the exact same abilities. Subclass will give some variety, but even then there is no variance within a subclass. Everyone who takes the subclass has the same exact abilities and options.
And were you talking about ninja? They weren’t solitary, they often operated in groups, even rather like the SAS.
They are very often solitary. Enough that they wouldn't have an ability dedicated to only allies. That they sometimes operate in groups is why I said either enemies or both enemies and allies.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Why would a solo assassin have an ability to move allies only? They wouldn't. It would either be enemies to kill/hurt them or everyone. They wouldn't have any ability to deflect energy. Arrows and other physical projectiles yes. Energy, no. That's not a ninja thing. There's nothing ninja about getting an extra save. Ninja's would not gain a wisdom of 25 at 20th level. Wisdom is a monk thing, not a ninja thing. Doing force damage with your fists is not a ninja thing in the slightest. That's purely monk.
ninja regularly worked in groups in real life, it is how they did the shadow clone technique as real life lacks cool powers, they, were spies, assassins, scouts and even killed with guns and explosives.
in some myths, they might as well have been one with the land and its spirits.
you could make a few sub-classes just out of different concepts for ninjas.
What to you think a class is? I see it as a description of a set of powers a PC can have. It’s a model, it’s not something that exists in any real sense any more than classes exist in the real world.

And were you talking about ninja? They weren’t solitary, they often operated in groups, even rather like the SAS. They would have a broad range of skills, some team-focused.
yes and no, clearly some might exist under other names but unless the pc are the special people they are likely not the first people with those skills or abilities to some degree.
 

How do you think a samurai would differ from any other fighter or paladin? They wear armour and hit people with weapons.

There is a samurai subclass in Xanathar’s, but it just a fighter with a nova special ability. Just like the cavalier is a tankier fighter.

That is a pretty deep question. I would need to think about how I want that to be mechanically, and I have some quibbles about how the fighters are presently handled so I think as is, there would be stepping on toes between classes. Ideally fighters would be pretty simple (I much prefer older edition fighters), but good at dishing out damage on attacks. I've also always liked their multiple attack options in prior editions, but threading that across a fighter and samurai would probably require care because warriors in fantasy movies take on multiple foes as do samurai, as do martial heroes in wuxia (that might require a lot of thought to see how something like multiple attacks would be artfully deployed between fighters and samurai). But certainly I would want to see the sorts of things you get in samurai films, and I am not as well acquainted with samurai movies as I am with wuxia movies, so my impressions are more general than anything else, but stuff I might expect would be: precise and lethal strikes, something that reflects the charging duel you often get in samurai films, something that reflects their use of tactics, the ability to deflect and defend (I might be inclined to make fighters meatier on HP but samurai better at defense), some kind of art of the sword ability as well, something like a single stroke that can cut a line through multiple foes, etc. With paladins I, quite like the earlier versions more than than the later ones (once you open up alignment on them, the class really loses some of its flavor IMO). I might bring them back to being holy warriors. I could quibble over some of their 1E and 2E abilities, but thought they were good overall. Because both paladins and samurai would have codes they are expected to adhere to, I think you can risk giving them some powers that exceed those of regular fighters as their behavior is more constrained.
 

Not optional proficiencies that have nothing to do with what the class represents. The class is a set list of abilities related to the class and what it represents. There are monk class abilities that don't represent ninja class abilities, so it fails to be a ninja class unless you are willing to kludge a square peg into a round hole and settle. I'm not willing to do that.

Mechanics don't back that up in D&D. In D&D they are a set list of abilities that represent the class concept and everyone who takes that class anywhere in the world has the exact same abilities. Subclass will give some variety, but even then there is no variance within a subclass. Everyone who takes the subclass has the same exact abilities and options.

They are very often solitary. Enough that they wouldn't have an ability dedicated to only allies. That they sometimes operate in groups is why I said either enemies or both enemies and allies.

I think the ninja subclass (it isn't called ninja and I think it should be) is actually pretty decent. With D&D I am not expecting them to fully capture and emulate samurai and ninja movies, just bring those things into D&D. I'd rather these be distinct classes because I do think you can get more customization of the concept that way, but just perusing the subclasses they have for the monk, the two that stand out as pretty decently capturing a concept are the warrior of shadow and warrior of the open hand (I must admit I do not get the warrior of mercy at all). I mean I have seen physicians in martial arts movies and that can work, but these guys are like plague doctor monks or something. I just don't get the concept (maybe I am missing something about it). The warrior of the elements text is interesting but the picture I feel like they missed an opportunity to have a character who looked more grounded in wuxia or something). I do think the subclass thing can work here, I would like it better if they had embraced the label ninja, but this is a pretty stealthy warrior character it seems (obviously that sort of thing is hard to really judge until you have seen it in play a bunch)
 

ninja regularly worked in groups in real life, it is how they did the shadow clone technique as real life lacks cool powers, they, were spies, assassins, scouts and even killed with guns and explosives.
in some myths, they might as well have been one with the land and its spirits.
you could make a few sub-classes just out of different concepts for ninjas.

This sort of thing sort of falls under the heading of 'pick an approach and go with it'. You can take a genre and emulate it twenty different ways. So I am not especially finicky on this front. An approach might try to lean into the whole waves of ninjas thing, where another might try to lean more into the solitary ninja thing.
 

This sort of thing sort of falls under the heading of 'pick an approach and go with it'. You can take a genre and emulate it twenty different ways. So I am not especially finicky on this front. An approach might try to lean into the whole waves of ninjas thing, where another might try to lean more into the solitary ninja thing.
or multiple ninja themed sub classes for different concepts, paladins get very far on oaths to different concepts
 

Mechanics don't back that up in D&D. In D&D they are a set list of abilities that represent the class concept and everyone who takes that class anywhere in the world has the exact same abilities
Game mechanics are an abstraction. The universe does not run on game mechanics. To see why this is the case, play any RPG set in the real world. They model the universe in the same way Newton’s Laws do, they work to describe things under the right circumstances, but do not represent a fundamental truth.

And no, everyone in the world does not have the exact same abilities. There are a potentially infinite number of classes and subclasses. When a new class is added to the game it has always been there. People with those abilities don’t simply appear out of nowhere. Which is why you often encounter NPCs with abilities that are not currently available to players.
 
Last edited:

ninja regularly worked in groups in real life, it is how they did the shadow clone technique as real life lacks cool powers, they, were spies, assassins, scouts and even killed with guns and explosives.
in some myths, they might as well have been one with the land and its spirits.
you could make a few sub-classes just out of different concepts for ninjas
Or have a band of ninjas include several different classes and subclasses. Because not everyone has identical abilities, and within any organisation people tend to specialise.
 

Or have a band of ninjas include several different classes and subclasses. Because not everyone has identical abilities, and within any organisation people tend to specialise.
depends on orders and context but yeah this idea but the point is that if you want to really go in on the stuff from legends and the stuff derived from those legends you can with the class with internal energy.
 

Game mechanics are an abstraction. The universe does not run on game mechanics. To see why this is the case, play any RPG set in the real world. They model the universe in the same way Newton’s Laws do, they work to describe things under the right circumstances, but do not represent a fundamental truth.

And no, everyone in the world does not have the exact same abilities. There are a potentially infinite number of classes and subclasses. When a new class is added to the game it has always been there. People with those abilities don’t simply appear out of nowhere. Which is why you often encounter NPCs with abilities that are not currently available to players.
yes and no, I doubt the classes do not exist to a certain degree in universe and people would sooner or later start seeing similarities as humans like to categorise things.
to abstract and classes might as well not exist, too literal and you have a different problem.
but that missis the point of discussing the monk class
 

Trending content

Remove ads

Top