D&D (2024) Help Me Hate Monks (Less Than I Currently Do)

[Bedrockgames]

It’s not ki anymore. It’s focus now. WotC are trying to make the point that it’s not specific to any real world culture, but it’s hard work when players are still locked into ideas that went out several editions ago.

I am not a fan of this kind of change. One of the things that makes the monk work is it connects to a recognizeable trope, like Shaolin from wuxia. Doesn't mean the characters have to be from an Asian analog, but making them generic martial artists, feels little less satisfying to me. Also I would argue even western martial arts have theory of Ki/Qi/Chi, even if they don't realize it because breathing is so important. If you learn a martial arts, even a western one, you learn how to breathe properly (and while the idea of Qi can encompass a lot more than breath, that is fundamentally what it is about in practical terms)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Friars are members of an order, yes. They are similar to monks, yes. But they are not monks.

Man I thought I knew what a monk and a monastery were before this thread and now I think we need to bring in Tony Shalhoub to clarify everything

 

[Paul Farquhar]

One of the things that makes the monk work is it connects to a recognizeable trope, like Shaolin from wuxia.

Which is the problem. People can't see past the trope.

Also I would argue even western martial arts have theory of Ki/Qi/Chi

This is covered in the class description:

Different Monks conceptualize this power in various ways: as breath, energy, life force, essence, or self, for example.

-2024 Free rules.​

How many westerners know Chi relates to breath anyway? I doubt the original class creator did!

 

[Bedrockgames]

It is to 5e's detriment that it is that way. The list of options for groups who train in martial arts in an East Asian setting is not just the Shaolin temple. China used to have thousands of small societies based around such things. Japan processed some ninja training villages. I know Korea had something like the Chinese version.

I know India has had fighting monks at several points, and I know Southeast Asia had martial arts, so there is likely some system for passing them down.

I know Africa had several systems (overwatches Doom Fist was derived from one) but I know less about Africa.

The thing is if you really wanted to do all those justice, you almost need individual classes for them. Obvious the monk is insanely D&D-ified, and these might end up being so too, but I would expect a ninja class to be very different (and there have been ninja classes in D&D before), and I would expect different martial sects to be different classes (or for there at least to be different classes capturing the feel of broad groups of styles)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Which is the problem. People can't see past the trope.

Well D&D is pretty much all tropes though

This is covered in the class description:

-2024 Free rules.​

This is part of my issue with it, they are effectively describing Ki, but they erase it.

How many westerners know Chi relates to breath anyway? I doubt the original class creator did!

I doubt they did. My point is just you can retain Ki as a dividing line between monks and other character classes, if you wanted a more universal martial artist (which I think is overly broad and a bad idea but if that is where the class is going), because I think there is a very sound argument that even boxers or wrestlers are still using Ki even if that isn't the language they employ to describe it.

 

[Senior_WotC_Janitor]

I'm with you on not liking monks in the pseudo-medieval fantasy that is D&D. They just don't fit the vibe.

I'm cool with them in the PHB as they are an option for some settings, but don't fit in others.

I feel the same way about Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Clerics, Rangers, Paladins, and Sorcerers, and most subclasses of Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard.

 

[Senior_WotC_Janitor]

Well D&D is pretty much all tropes though

Pretty much everything is all tropes. I don't see the point in using the term tropes in this way.

 

[Maxperson]

It is to 5e's detriment that it is that way. The list of options for groups who train in martial arts in an East Asian setting is not just the Shaolin temple. China used to have thousands of small societies based around such things. Japan processed some ninja training villages. I know Korea had something like the Chinese version.

Sure, but most of them were not monks. Shaolin were temples. Most of the other traditions were just martial arts. Ninjas are not monks. They are ninjas. Different abilities. The Shaolin were monastic and so were monks. The others were not.

In the real world Shaolin monk martial arts and Joe martial arts master in his studio were roughly the same. However, monks in D&D go beyond martial arts. I used to(and may still have) a dragon magazine that had martial arts that any PC could learn. They were different from monks.

 

[Maxperson]

Man I thought I knew what a monk and a monastery were before this thread and now I think we need to bring in Tony Shalhoub to clarify everything

Now I may have to make a Monk PC that is a germaphobe.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The thing is if you really wanted to do all those justice, you almost need individual classes for them. Obvious the monk is insanely D&D-ified, and these might end up being so too, but I would expect a ninja class to be very different (and there have been ninja classes in D&D before), and I would expect different martial sects to be different classes (or for there at least to be different classes capturing the feel of broad groups of styles)

true however that would take four editions to do, I would live with one decently solid one as a starting point.

Sure, but most of them were not monks. Shaolin were temples. Most of the other traditions were just martial arts. Ninjas are not monks. They are ninjas. Different abilities. The Shaolin were monastic and so were monks. The others were not.

In the real world Shaolin monk martial arts and Joe martial arts master in his studio were roughly the same. However, monks in D&D go beyond martial arts. I used to(and may still have) a dragon magazine that had martial arts that any PC could learn. They were different from monks.

a secluded martial arts society where you are taught a mix of martial arts and the esoteric stuff that explains them is close enough concept-wise for most, and the technical terms are how you start a nationalistic war.

the old esoteric societies of old dynasty china already believed they could become more or less that sort of thing.
we even have a new pulp book equivalents out of asia we have the ability to do it now.