D&D 5E Help me out on character customization here please

[captainembewrath]

Alright. I was a D&D player from 2e through 3.5. I really didn't like what I saw with 4e so my group kept with 3.5 until we got to play Pathfinder, and we've really enjoyed that so far. Now I've read about D&D Next and the whole classes and subclasses thing (which to be honest I am NOT liking, at least not based on what I'm seeing so far), the fact that you only can get four feats, for which you have to give up a stat bonus; and the potential removal of skills. It seems like they're removing an awful lot of options for players to customize their characters in the name of simplifying everything down to a common denominator.

Now I like being able to build a character around a concept. Say I wanna make a character based off Madmartigan from the movie Willow. A character that's, while a bit of a scoundrel, is a great swordsman. Within the current rules I can make that character by spending skill points in things like a few of the Rogue skills, and then maybe taking a Fighter archetype and using my feats to specialize with a particular type of sword that fits for what I want to do. (Just using this as an example please bear with me)

How would D&D Next allow me to build this character? If there are no skills, and no feats or feat trees, just what would differentiate my swordsman from another player's fighter if they chose the same subclass? If we're getting the same abilities and we can both all do all the skills based on our stats what makes us different? Aside from role playing? Mechanically there doesn't seem to be much difference, and believe me I'm not someone who's a minmaxer. I've never been good at combos and have been teased at times because I don't always build the most optimized characters. I just want to understand where the customization comes in with D&D Next. So please help me to do so.

 

[the Jester]

Ignoring roleplaying? Well, there's race and background; 5e is going to have an optional skill system and feats (and it seems to me that you get far more than 4 over your career); and the difference between ability scores, especially if you roll rather than do point buy. Not to mention equipment choices. I think there will be quite a few options for customization by the time the game releases, especially if you play standard or advanced (as opposed to the basic, many-choices-premade, version of the game).

 

[Quickleaf]

Using the August 2013 play test rules, your Madmartigan PC might look like...

Race - Human
Background - Thug (possibly with different skill choice)
Class - Fighter
Martial Path - Warrior
Feat - Fencing Master

Then you roleplay the PC as a smarmy, sarcastic scoundrel. Where's the problem?

 

[N'raac]

If you're looking for a huge array of options, like D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder have with all the rules currently out there, I very much doubt DDN will do the trick.

But I suspect a lot of the customization you are looking for would not be possible if you picked up a D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook or the Pathfinder Core Rule Book either. Both games have seen extensive additional rules published in addition to their core rules set. It's not much of a gamble to suggest DDN will as well.

You ask "just what would differentiate my swordsman from another player's fighter if they chose the same subclass"? Besides role playing, which was mentioned above, what would differentiate your Pathfinder human fighter with Archetype A specialized in the Bastard Sword used one handed with a tower shield from any other Pathfinder human fighter with Archetype A specialized in the Bastard Sword used one handed with a tower shield? If we build identical, or close to identical, characters, then little will distinguish them mechanically, although role playing can still make them totally different characters.

From what I understand in DDN, you will be choosing a race, background and subclass for each character, setting their ability scores (frex, want better scoundrel skills? take a higher DEX), choices within the class (martial path), feats and equipment (frex, higher DEX suggests lighter armor might be considered). If we can't build a party of 4 -6 characters who are each distinct from those choices, I think something is wrong with the gaming group, not the rules system. And that's before we add in any optional modules, expanded options from new rules sources, official, third party, and/or home brew.

And role playing, mentioned above. Mechanical differences still leave characters that feel the same if we RP them the same, and mechanically identical characters with very different personalities can be memorable as distinct characters.

Finally, and not really germane to the issue, I find it odd that one would be trying to build a unique, distinct character just like this guy from a movie.

 

[Ratskinner]

Now I like being able to build a character around a concept. Say I wanna make a character based off Madmartigan from the movie Willow. A character that's, while a bit of a scoundrel, is a great swordsman. Within the current rules I can make that character by spending skill points in things like a few of the Rogue skills, and then maybe taking a Fighter archetype and using my feats to specialize with a particular type of sword that fits for what I want to do. (Just using this as an example please bear with me)

These things are always tricky, because we don't all share the same vision of a character that we saw on the screen for less than 2 hours. So the answer will depend on how you see the character....also, a lot of what made Madmartigan cool was his pesonality, and I don't think anybody has rules that will make up for that.

As of the 08/02 packet, I would say that obviously Fighter is the choice for primary class, and definitely the path of the Gladiator (for you). The scoundrel part is mostly roleplay to start off, and I could see using either the Soldier, Guide, Commoner, or maybe even Charlatan backgrounds to reflect this (There will likely be more options in the future).

How would D&D Next allow me to build this character?

As of the 08/02 packet, I would say that obviously Fighter is the choice for primary class, and definitely the path of the Gladiator (for you). The scoundrel part is mostly roleplay to start off, and I could see using either the Soldier, Guide, Commoner, or maybe even Charlatan backgrounds to reflect this (There will likely be many more options in the future). As you level up, you could squeeze in a few Rogue or maybe Ranger levels, if you wanted to emphasize the scoundrel part some more. For feats, I would think that Lucky, Mobile, Dual-Wielder, and Tough would all be appropriate.

If there are no skills, and no feats or feat trees, just what would differentiate my swordsman from another player's fighter if they chose the same subclass?

Background, Race, ability score distribution, role-playing. I mean, honestly, Madmartigan is a fine fighter type, but does he really do anything that's so fantabulously unique that we need a special feat tree for it? I don't think so. Most of what makes him cool is his personality. I suppose you could have a "Wisecracking" feat or something, but I don't think it would feel satisfying in play.

Also, Feats are available in the Standard(?) game in Next.

If we're getting the same abilities and we can both all do all the skills based on our stats what makes us different? Aside from role playing?

Aside from role-playing? Ahh, the grognard in me balks, but also sympathizes. First, I would humbly suggest that since Ability scores are doing much more "skillsy" heavy lifting in 5e, that they matter a lot more. So, I would think that Madmartigan would have a higher Charisma than Wisdom, while another fighter might have that reversed.

Mechanically there doesn't seem to be much difference, and believe me I'm not someone who's a minmaxer. I've never been good at combos and have been teased at times because I don't always build the most optimized characters. I just want to understand where the customization comes in with D&D Next. So please help me to do so.

I fully expect to see modules that will add much more mechanical customization back into the game, even if its just through the proliferation of subclasses. I could also envision a module adding in some kind of Background Expertise die. However....

I'm not sure that's such a good thing. I think a lot/most people have come to see the proliferation of fiddly bits as one of the problems with the WotC editions (especially with speed). Additionally, at some point, one has to wonder if the resolution(?) of such characters has much time to show itself in play in some important way. Generally, I think it doesn't, except perhaps in those cases where you have two similar characters, and suddenly those differences become much more important.

I would also point out that you seem to perceive of only one type of customization as being important, which is leading you to ask a rather impossible question. I mean "Aside from roleplaying, what differentiates two human fighters with the same subclass, race, background, and ability scores, if you have no feats?" is essentially asking "After removing/ignoring all the opportunities to differentiate two characters, what's left to differentiate them?"

 

[Wicht]

Finally, and not really germane to the issue, I find it odd that one would be trying to build a unique, distinct character just like this guy from a movie.

Really?

 

[Li Shenron]

If you're looking for a huge array of options, like D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder have with all the rules currently out there, I very much doubt DDN will do the trick.

This. If you want to have the same level of customization as 3e/PF, then you have to wait a decade of publications...

OTOH it would be interesting to compare core vs core. Right now however, we may or may not have seen the whole 5e core yet. It's very possible that part of the playtest rules won't make it into the 3 corebooks of 5e, while it's possible that other stuff (more feats and subclasses) will be included.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Race - Human
Background - Thug (possibly with different skill choice)
Class - Fighter
Martial Path - Warrior
Feat - Fencing Master

I would have said "Martial Path - Knight", but the rest seems exactly right.

 

[N'raac]

This. If you want to have the same level of customization as 3e/PF, then you have to wait a decade of publications...

OTOH it would be interesting to compare core vs core. Right now however, we may or may not have seen the whole 5e core yet. It's very possible that part of the playtest rules won't make it into the 3 corebooks of 5e, while it's possible that other stuff (more feats and subclasses) will be included.

I thought about noting that much of Pathfinder's customization options come from archetypes, which were not in the core rules. Seems like this will be the role of subclasses, which it looks like DDN will have in its core rules. I suspect a lot of customization options will come from deconstructing subclasses (and paths and backgrounds) so you can select the elements you want for your own unique mechanical build.

 

[captainembewrath]

Alright. It appears that I wasn't clear about something here. The reason that I left role playing out of my original comparison was because the question was about mechanics. I know about role playing a character because that's what I do, if all I wanted to do was chuck dice I'd go to Vegas. Mechanics, however, are more quantifiable. They're a bit more static and can be examine and the differences between two characters can be compared more easily. That's why I was asking what I did. If skills are optional, and the GM decides not to use them, how is any one character special at doing something beyond their stat? I mean just because someone is really strong that doesn't mean that they're automatically good at jumping.

Despite what many of you might think I really did read several of the threads about D&D Next, and to be totally honest I don't agree with all of the changes. I honestly can't say that I like the changes that I've seen, but I am trying to understand them. I really want to know how a person with a particular concept would build their character if the current means of doing so is denied them. I know that role playing is an important part of the character, but I just have questions about the mechanics of it all.