Help Me Stat the Roman Legions

[Tony Vargas]

Hobgoblins actually do work pretty well. Just change the weapon mix - replace flails with gladii and pili. The change from flail to shortsword means they hit slightly more often (+3 proficiency) but do less damage. I'd also consider modelling some of thier standard tactics. Three others to consider might be: 1) impaling an enemy's shield with a thrown javelin, and, in melee, grabbing the javelin to pull the shield aside. 2) stunning an attacker with a shield bash, then stabbing from beneath the rim of the shield with the gladius. 3) concentrating your attack on the enemy facing the ally to your right, while using your shield to defend against the enemy in front of you. The Hobgoblins phallanx fighting partially models the third (or the testudo formation, I suppose). A Minor action gladius attack useable only vs an enemy that has attacked an adjacent ally on it's last turn (maybe with a recharge?), might be cool. Or, a shield smash that dazes for a turn (definitely with a recharge), plus a minor-action gladius attack only vs dazed enemies would make being outnumbered by them potentially very nasty. The javelin in-the-shield trick should be an encounter attack (there were different kinds of pili, the heavier one used for that trick would be thrown first, with several lighter ones, even 'darts,' for any additional ranged work): it could do javelin damage, and render a shield unusable until the wielder spent an action (standard?) to remove the javelin.

I'm suggesting the minor action attacks because the gladius was chosen for the Legions for it's speed and the tight formation it allowed. It was possible to stab two or three times with a gladius for each swing of a longer, heavier sword or ax, and to stand shoulder-to-shoulder while doing it. In this way, in the press, the legionaires effectively outnumbered those foes who didn't fight in formation, regardless of the actual numbers involved.


On an historical note, Roman cavalry was often axilliary - not made up of actual romans - and would typically use a spatha (longsword) rather than a gladius.

 

[LostSoul]

These sound like they would be fun to model in 4E. I'm using the attack values for a 3rd level soldier from Asmor's monster math cruncher (+10 AC, +8 NADs).

1) impaling an enemy's shield with a thrown javelin, and, in melee, grabbing the javelin to pull the shield aside.
2) stunning an attacker with a shield bash, then stabbing from beneath the rim of the shield with the gladius.
3) concentrating your attack on the enemy facing the ally to your right, while using your shield to defend against the enemy in front of you.

Short Sword, +10 v AC, 1d6+5 damage.
Javelin, ranged 5/10, +9 v AC, 1d6+5 damage.
1 Impale Shield, ranged 5/10, requires heavy javelin, +9 v R, the target's shield is impaled until the javelin is removed.
1 Heavy Javelin, ranged 5/10, against targets without shields only, +7 v R, 1d8+5 and the target is restrained (save ends).
1 Pull Shield, minor, only against targets with impaled shields, +8 v F, the target's shield is yanked out of place and the target suffers a -4 penalty to AC and R until the end of its next turn.
2 Shield bash, +8 v F, 1d4+5 damage and make a secondary attack: +12 v AC, 1d6+5 damage.
3 Formation Fighting
+2 AC and +2 to melee attacks while adjacent to an ally.
equipment: heavy shield, 1 heavy javelin, 3 javelins, short sword.

 

[Ryujin]

I'm suggesting the minor action attacks because the gladius was chosen for the Legions for it's speed and the tight formation it allowed. It was possible to stab two or three times with a gladius for each swing of a longer, heavier sword or ax, and to stand shoulder-to-shoulder while doing it. In this way, in the press, the legionaires effectively outnumbered those foes who didn't fight in formation, regardless of the actual numbers involved.

Wouldn't it make more sense to model it on a conditional secondary attack then, rather than giving something as powerful as a minor action attack? Perhaps a shield bash with a secondary gladius strike at +1 or +2 if the bash hits? A bonus to AC and hit if another legionary has your back would effectively emulate the formed ranks.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes, a secondary attack would work quite well. I was thinking of monsters, and I can recall fighting a few that made conditional minor attacks (minor attack when foe is bloodied, for instance). So it seems OK for monsters. For a PC power based on such manuever, a secondary attack would make a lot more sense, too.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Good stuff, Tony and LostSoul!

But more seriously, it depends on a couple of things. First, your game world, how magical is it, and how realistic do you want the Legion? Second, what role will the PC's have with the legion? Allies? Enemies?

My game world will be fairly standard in terms of how magical and race mixture and such. So the legions will be located in and around various city-states, not simply part of one country. The heroes will therefore have them as allies and will encounter them as enemies. I haven't fully decided yet whether one or more party members will be considered to have served in a legion.

Ideally, I'd want the legion stats to be realistic for a D&D world. Fortunately, I think this is quite doable in 4E without having to have a "wizard cohort", etc. However, following the Codex Alera I am thinking of a Tribune Medica who will be a cleric NPC and may have several Subtribunes (also clerics).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Enemies - and allies, for that matter - don't need to be balanced the way a party is. Still, a 'party' composed of a Warlord, couple of Fighters, maybe a TWF ranger (if shield bashing could be worked into it) or Rogue (gladius is a light blade, not everyone has to wear Lorica Segmentata), and a number of minion legionaires making up for the lack of a controller, could be quite workable, if odd, with no recourse to Divine, Arcane or other sources.

The Romans did take religion very seriously, though, and in a practical-minded way (what we'd call superstition, today). The right gods propitiated at the right time - and none offended - would get the desired results. So, Divine characters wouldn't be particularly a-historical to include, they'd just deliver the goods in a flashier, more dependable way.