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D&D 5E Help me understand & find the fun in OC/neo-trad play...

Mercurius

Legend
I grew up on the D&D of the 80s, so for me "traditional" was my imprinted default style of play, with the DM creating the setting and story environment within which the PCs interacted. PCs had agency, but the DM had ultimate authority as "author of the world." I personally never ran into problems with this, at least as DM, perhaps because I was always open to negotiation, and generally played with people who didn't constantly want to challenge or re-make the world in their own image. On the other hand, I occasionally did play with DMs who abused this, so it is not that I see "trad" as being without potential problems.

Anyhow, I see all play styles--whether the six outlined in the article or any other way we might want to slice the cake--as being neither good nor bad, but all having potential for abuse. Trad can become problematic with a DM who doesn't care about player agency, or has a "Grand Plan" they want to enact, regardless of the other people at the table. PC/neo-trad can become problematic if you have a player(s) who, likewise, insist on their own fun over that of the other members of the group, and/or are constantly challenging the DM.

Ultimately I find all such labels (play styles, etc) artificial - just shorthand terms for discussion. I find that style of play ultimately comes down to table agreements, both as initially set out and discussed, but also as evolved organically during game play (and perhaps unspoken). Each table has its own culture, and each game and campaign might explore different aspects of that culture and/or expand it. Furthermore, even if a group is largely of one play style, the boundaries are often fuzzy. The key components are buy-in and flexibility; problems arise when any member of the group isn't willing to buy into the shared agreements and/or is inflexible about what the game naturally becomes.

One final thought. I think a lot of interpersonal problems arise when one or more people take the game either too seriously or not seriously enough. Meaning, there's an ideal middle ground, which is quite broad in that it isn't this narrow sweet-spot of perfect engagement, but doesn't fall into extremes of either not giving a crap and treating everything too lightly (e.g. "too cool for school," so let me mess it up for everyone else)--relative to the group as a whole--or taking it so seriously that their engagement in the game is basically a surrogate therapy session - working out their own psychodynamic complexes in the game session. Both tend to muddy the waters and even ruin the primary purpose of the game: shared enjoyment.

In other words, the primary purpose of any game is fun - and for everyone involved. Or at least this is the primary purpose of most role-playing games, such as D&D! Regardless of the play style and their emphasized objectives, all of which should ultimately serve individual and gorup enjoyment. D&D isn't Monopoly, which is supposed to be fun, but often ends up with one person having fun and the rest experiencing varying degrees of waning enjoyment morphing into feeling kind of bummed out by the end (and it could be argued that the original purpose of Monopoly was to illustrate and teach the dangers of capitalism).

The DM's responsibilities include creating a context that has a high probability of being fun for all, even if that doesn't always line up exactly with their creative vision, but players can help this along by being flexible and not needing the game to always reflect their own personal wish fulfillment fantasies.
 

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
One final thought. I think a lot of interpersonal problems arise when one or more people take the game either too seriously or not seriously enough. Meaning, there's an ideal middle ground, which is quite broad in that it isn't this narrow sweet-spot of perfect engagement, but doesn't fall into extremes of either not giving a crap and treating everything too lightly (e.g. "too cool for school," so let me mess it up for everyone else)--relative to the group as a whole--or taking it so seriously that their engagement in the game is basically a surrogate therapy session - working out their own psychodynamic complexes in the game session. Both tend to muddy the waters and even ruin the primary purpose of the game: shared enjoyment.
The rest of the post is good, but I'm pulling this out because it feels related to one of my rules for behavior at a TRPG table: Take the game about as seriously as everyone else at the table does.
 


niklinna

satisfied?
Having looked it up, it's basically a toggle. Keeping it down means you can't die randomly (you're left stable, effectively, but otherwise suffer the consequences of being dropped). Raise your Death Flag, you can die--but you may also get a precious resource you wouldn't otherwise have. The example rules included "Conviction," which you have 6 of at the start of each session or each day, depending on which variant the DM picks. Spending Conviction can give you advantage, let you reroll a die after you've seen the result, or even potentially get extra actions (better benefits having higher costs, naturally). Raising your Death Flag gives you 6 Conviction instantly, even if it would push you over the normal 6 cap. But, crucially, you can't lower your Death Flag unless you spend 6 Conviction--meaning you can't just willy-nilly pass back and forth between the two states.

It turns death into a chosen risk, rather than a constant burden. Given when the document--"Raising the Stakes: Drama Rules for Action Fantasy Campaigns"--was published, namely 2007, this was clearly written for 3e, but could work for most editions of D&D with minor tweaking (e.g. 5e doesn't have rules for "immediate actions," but this would probably work fine as a once-per-round free action or the like.)
See @EzekielRaiden just upthread. And more generally I was treating it as a shorthand for "no random, permanent, irrevocable deaths" (ER's phrase)- eg in Burning Wheel or Torchbearer if I spend my last Persona, that means I won't have the will to live should I die.

The 2007 document ER references <http://esix.pbworks.com/f/RaisingtheStakes.pdf> arose out of discussions here, although the poster (Ryan Stoughton) doesn't seem to be active anymore.
Thanks! This sounds pretty cool. I had done a quick search but not found anything other than phrases that cued a charcter's imminent death in manga. This looks like it would work pretty well in 5e too.

Edit: See post immediately following for an enworld-native link to download.
 
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J.Quondam

CR 1/8
Thanks! This sounds pretty cool. I had done a quick search but not found anything other than phrases that cued a charcter's imminent death in manga. This looks like it would work pretty well in 5e too.

Note: The link @pemerton shared raises a security alert in Firefox. The PDF is available on archive.org though if that's a concern for you.
Here's the original "finalized" E6 thread, fwiw. Aside from all the discussion at the time, it's got links (at bottom of that first post) to the relevant PDFs hosted here at ENWorld, so they shouldn't pose any security risks.
 

bloodtide

Legend
I played that, and while it's true that the rules don't care, players pretty always came to care about their characters, they game them names, they developed personalities over time, and were sad when they were died. You really think no one felt anything at all when their 8th level character died?!
Yes. It depends on the players and depends on the group. For some players, when "Fangor the Mighty" dies they are just like "oh well, anyone what to go play basketball?" Many players then, and even now, play RPGs like 'wargames' or 'board games'.

There can be a neo-trad game concerned with the player's goals for their street cop PC, as much as one concerned with the player's goals for their world-saving chosen one. Your focus on "scale" is blurring your identification of the real issue, which is player goals for and conception of PCs vs GM-determined character-indifferent adventure.
Well, most neo triad players want to be a chosen one and not just an everyman. To make a OC then say "I want him to be a beat cop stopping petty crimes" is not too common. And when are talking about a really mundane type adventure, that is more Triad.

Triad is more for cop stories like....the show Cops. Where they pull over a driver, talk to them and write them a ticket...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Not that cops never has action...

Neo Triad is...well, every cop tv show. Where the cops get into a gun fight with some crooks over an armored truck full of diamond dangling off a bridge and on fire.

or, you know, to find out what the players are interested in, subtle-like. I've gotten backstories ranging from a few sentences to 20,000 words, and they're all fine. I'm not doing it in any unjustified "hope" that the players will react with some unmerited vigor or glee; I'm just doing it so I'll have more range of ideas. Same as asking the players to fill in setting details connected to their characters--it's a big world (OK, city) I'm sure the players have thoughts, I see no reason not to use them.
That is your way and it is fine. Vs the Triad of "the DM just does what they want" and "the DM will find out what the players like without asking them".
The bit about the GM not caring about the backstories, not caring what the players are interested in, about the characters as anything other than targets for whatever story the GM has--published or self-authored: That sounds right to me. I don't know anyone who really thinks long, involved backstories are some sort of key to roleplaying--they're much more authorial than any sort of actor stance, far as I can tell.
A lot of DMs do make a big deal about backstories.
Oddly, the thing that's right also applies to neotrad--the players will pay attention and engage in game play because they want to. (I've fixed your grammo, there, please forgive me, O wordsmith.)
The difference is: The Neo Triad DM asks the players directly what they want and then makes whatever they are told to make. The Triad DM makes whatever they want and often does not ask the players for anything.
In my neotrad games, the adventures are also the focus--it's just that the adventures are specifically the PC's adventures, they're not there for just any rando that shows up.
This is a big difference.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
Here's the original "finalized" E6 thread, fwiw. Aside from all the discussion at the time, it's got links (at bottom of that first post) to the relevant PDFs hosted here at ENWorld, so they shouldn't pose any security risks.
Rather than necro that thread, I'll ask here if anybody know what those two graphs are about. The legend of the three line colors is unreadable.
 


prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
That is your way and it is fine. Vs the Triad of "the DM just does what they want" and "the DM will find out what the players like without asking them".
My experience has been more that the GM will do what they want in the presumption that the players will enjoy it. It's rarely malicious, though it's often kinda solipsistic.
A lot of DMs do make a big deal about backstories.
My experience is that the bigger deal the players make of backstories, the less likely they think the GM is to take the backstories into account. I ask for backstories, but they're optional--if someone would rather not write one, that's fine. (If I'm asking for setting details, that's less optional, though I wouldn't push hard on it.) But then, I've never been in a game as a player where the GM made any kind of deal about backstory--most of the time it was less a skirt than a loincloth.
The difference is: The Neo Triad DM asks the players directly what they want and then makes whatever they are told to make. The Triad DM makes whatever they want and often does not ask the players for anything.
The players didn't tell me to make anything. They gave me things I can use to make stuff, but the biggest obligation I have is not to negate anything. Maybe in some other neotrad games, the GMs are a little more constrained.
 

J.Quondam

CR 1/8
Rather than necro that thread, I'll ask here if anybody know what those two graphs are about. The legend of the three line colors is unreadable.

I think these are the originals in this post:

The legends on both graphs are "Leveling alone; leveling with feats; and leveling with feats and magic items." I believe they're qualitative, just to show the point that PC power varies depending upon what elements you include in advancement.


(Fwiw, Ryan launched a handful of E6 threads within a few months of each other, as people hashed out the basic concepts over time.)
 
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