D&D 5E Help me understand & find the fun in OC/neo-trad play...

[nyvinter]

Credit goes to @clearstream and @nyvinter in this thread.

I've started to avoid Neotrad threads because the definition they use is so different to what I'm used to that it's a bit hard to discuss. But what's often ignored in the English speaking versions is that Tomas Härenstam's "trad games" of neo-trad had its foundation in the Swedish BRP simulationist rather than D&D.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The reality part is:
Triad: the hook is generic. Nearly anyone can take the hook based their individual personality. A good character does good deeds, for example.
Neo Triad: The Hook is personal. The warlord of the evil empire is your Father, and he has the Force...and you the Son are the only other one in the galaxy that also has the Force and has a chance to stop him.....

It is unrealistic for some to have every bad guy in the world somehow directly related to the PCs as well as every hook tailored to the PCs too.

This sounds like a fun game! Can I play too?

Trad hook: The quest-giver asks you to steal a map for him from the local museum. He claims they refused to sell it to him, but offers no proof. He doesn’t say why he needs the map or provide any reason why the museum shouldn’t keep it.

The players go along with it because the alternative is not playing the adventure. (This is an actual campaign hook in an actual published adventure).

Neo-trad hook: Your tweenage brother, fool of a Took that he is, wandered off looking for adventure. You need to find him before he gets hurt.

I know which hook is more likely to get buy-in from the players. It’s not unrealistic to think that players and characters are more motivated by issues they have told you matter to them.

In a lot of ways, it’s more realistic. “My brother’s missing…” makes it likely that me and my three friends would take centre stage in finding him. “A dragon is menacing Stillben” makes it weird that the only people who seem motivated to stop this are me and my three buddies.

As a sidenote: Star Wars is a terrible example here. The original trilogy is extremely plot-driven. If Vader, Leah and Luke are unrelated, a lot of the trilogy proceeds in the exact same way.

 

[GobHag]

As someone that made a neotrad thread a month or two back, I'm more than willing to say that yes--Neotrad does have at least a bit of preplanning going on. Usually vaguely when it's far in the future but I've had my fair share of 'alright so your right-hand man is gonna confront you about your crimes-""Oh mention about that prince I clawed to death""Kk, here we go"

In fact I think some form of Character Arc making/Player-led railroading is perfectly in the wheelhouse of OC/NeoTrad. Sometimes even mechanized, like if a game has 'Make This Plot Happens' button(Some of Fabula Ultimas quirks are a bit like this) that's in the hands of a PC then yeah I can consider that a bit of Story Before rather than Story Now. People here won't like it but knowing the destination doesn't ruin the journey IME.

And while I have read a few Free League core rulebooks, I really don't consider them NeoTrad supporting games from the(admittedly not a deep) reads. Chronicles of Darkness splats, Chuubo's, 13th age, the Lancer-likes, Fate, those are games that I think really support Neotrad.

---

As for how to enjoy Neotrad: Simple, an undersaid element of Neotrad is that it's also performative. The PC's are thrown good bits(for comedy) and plot material(for drama) or engaging fights(for combat) and then see them act it out infront of you.

Old RPG Gamers and The Streaming Youth - From a Dark Forest

Another question from the dark forest, which is essentially creaky old people muttering about how much better it was back in the day. I tri...

jdcspot.blogspot.com

Lot of the discussions here focuses on plot, but the main joy as a player is Character Fulfillment. If a character have a generational conflict between them and their father, then you're supposed to give them that duel or confrontation sooner or later but also if there are warriors in your part then you really want to make sure that there are very little flying ranged enemies in your combat encounters.

 

[zakael19]

As someone that made a neotrad thread a month or two back, I'm more than willing to say that yes--Neotrad does have at least a bit of preplanning going on. Usually vaguely when it's far in the future but I've had my fair share of 'alright so your right-hand man is gonna confront you about your crimes-""Oh mention about that prince I clawed to death""Kk, here we go"

In fact I think some form of Character Arc making/Player-led railroading is perfectly in the wheelhouse of OC/NeoTrad. Sometimes even mechanized, like if a game has 'Make This Plot Happens' button(Some of Fabula Ultimas quirks are a bit like this) that's in the hands of a PC then yeah I can consider that a bit of Story Before rather than Story Now. People here won't like it but knowing the destination doesn't ruin the journey IME.

And while I have read a few Free League core rulebooks, I really don't consider them NeoTrad supporting games from the(admittedly not a deep) reads. Chronicles of Darkness splats, Chuubo's, 13th age, the Lancer-likes, Fate, those are games that I think really support Neotrad.

---

As for how to enjoy Neotrad: Simple, an undersaid element of Neotrad is that it's also performative. The PC's are thrown good bits(for comedy) and plot material(for drama) or engaging fights(for combat) and then see them act it out infront of you.

Old RPG Gamers and The Streaming Youth - From a Dark Forest

Another question from the dark forest, which is essentially creaky old people muttering about how much better it was back in the day. I tri...

jdcspot.blogspot.com

Lot of the discussions here focuses on plot, but the main joy as a player is Character Fulfillment. If a character have a generational conflict between them and their father, then you're supposed to give them that duel or confrontation sooner or later but also if there are warriors in your part then you really want to make sure that there are very little flying ranged enemies in your combat encounters.

Yeah, you see this in Fabula Ultima’s GMing advice: “here’s how to build encounters that are interesting and let these different classes shine.” 4e’s DMG (maybe DMG2?) did have similar advice on how to give character / player fulfillment with similar examples, but FU mechanizes it better via metacurrency and the characters bonds etc.

I think your post captures a lot of the player attraction to this style of play for sure - although I do like how newer games incorporate design to give GMs the tools to press characters on their beliefs / desires both mechanically & via RP and drama as classically. I think that allows for richer play and character development with players interested in this style of play.

 

[Shardstone]

As someone that made a neotrad thread a month or two back, I'm more than willing to say that yes--Neotrad does have at least a bit of preplanning going on. Usually vaguely when it's far in the future but I've had my fair share of 'alright so your right-hand man is gonna confront you about your crimes-""Oh mention about that prince I clawed to death""Kk, here we go"

In fact I think some form of Character Arc making/Player-led railroading is perfectly in the wheelhouse of OC/NeoTrad. Sometimes even mechanized, like if a game has 'Make This Plot Happens' button(Some of Fabula Ultimas quirks are a bit like this) that's in the hands of a PC then yeah I can consider that a bit of Story Before rather than Story Now. People here won't like it but knowing the destination doesn't ruin the journey IME.

And while I have read a few Free League core rulebooks, I really don't consider them NeoTrad supporting games from the(admittedly not a deep) reads. Chronicles of Darkness splats, Chuubo's, 13th age, the Lancer-likes, Fate, those are games that I think really support Neotrad.

---

As for how to enjoy Neotrad: Simple, an undersaid element of Neotrad is that it's also performative. The PC's are thrown good bits(for comedy) and plot material(for drama) or engaging fights(for combat) and then see them act it out infront of you.

Old RPG Gamers and The Streaming Youth - From a Dark Forest

Another question from the dark forest, which is essentially creaky old people muttering about how much better it was back in the day. I tri...

jdcspot.blogspot.com

Lot of the discussions here focuses on plot, but the main joy as a player is Character Fulfillment. If a character have a generational conflict between them and their father, then you're supposed to give them that duel or confrontation sooner or later but also if there are warriors in your part then you really want to make sure that there are very little flying ranged enemies in your combat encounters.

I actually don't think we're all that different in our views of Neotrad.

Usually, Neotrad games are mid-tier crunch, like D&D, Symbaroum, and so on. However, there are crunchy and lite Neotrad games. Regardless, since Neotrad games tend to be mid-crunch, that means some level of prep is necessary to run a good game; this is a result of mid-crunch games requiring either mastery to run well or prep so you can get all the different parts of the system assembled in such a way so as to smoothly run the game.

A great example of a Neotrad game is Invisible Sun. Lots of rules, all focused on playing out characters and their character arcs (which can be anything from having a kid in this surrealist magic world or becoming the head mage of an organization). So long as the game is more focused on the adventurers as opposed to the adventure, it feels Neotrad to me. This does not mean the adventure is unimportant. Many people read stuff like this and form an instant black and white perspective. In reality, the adventure matters a lot, because the adventure and adventurers are intrinsically linked in Neotrad; there is no adventure without these characters, and these characters in turn shape and color the adventure.

This is opposed to truly traditional games and old modules where the characters and their origins do not matter at all.

 

[Umbran]

I take it that’s Language , not Literature, or you would be aware of the significance of context and nuance.

Mod Note:
If you want to insult people, do it on some other site, Paul. It won't be accepted here.

That's the last jab you'll get on anyone in this thread, as you won't be posting in this discussion any further.

This isn't the only place you've been less-than grand to people in the past 24 hours or so. Maybe look to that before you say something truly regrettable.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I prefer setting over character or plot, but I'm odd that way.

That another totally valid style the the guy who wrote the article never even heard of.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I wonder if my GMing style is neo-trad? I make frames for the campaign and arches, sketching potential baddies and their activities. My session to session prep is modifying those frames depending on the characters actions, maybe create a set piece, adding and further develop NPCs, and setting up/preparing potential complications in the players way based on the players plans and action. In session I just improv and let the players do their thing.

It's a very reactive GMing style, kind of a sandbox with defined but dynamic frames. And all of it is based on the fact that my creativity can never match the players fears, paranoias, bizarre conclusions and wild planning based on wrong and insufficient facts. I just tap into that for my prep and campaign development.

It could be, but I can't really say with confidence based on this information. It might be trad-trad, or somewhere in between the two.

 

[Shardstone]

I prefer setting over character or plot, but I'm odd that way.

This is also my preference.

 

[Baron Opal II]

So, a follow-up question. What are the best practices for setting up and running a neo-trad game?

Get goals and plot hooks from the players, if not backgrounds that can be mined for ideas.

Work with the players to make sure things gel together at least somewhat, there's no major problems or clashes re: theme. Though some internal party conflict is great.

Incorporate all that into prep by making factions, NPCs, situations, potential quests, etc that reflect the players' & PCs' goals.

Wind 'em up, and let 'em go. Emergent play. Play to find out. Poke the PCs in their feels. "Steer" things only in the sense of injecting drama, conflict, tension, obstacles, challenges, consequences, etc.

How close is that? How far off the mark? Some pitfalls to look out for? General advice?

Part of the equation for me is a familiarity with the campaign world. For me, the neo-trad comes fully into play in the second or third adventure.

I want to be a noble --> Now I'm aware of the circle of the powerful.
I want to avenge my family --> This temple and guild can be my allies and provide clues I can't find on my own.
I want a strong family legacy --> This group of allies can find me a strong marriage partner.
I want to humiliate my rival --> This guild is in opposition to theirs, and this other group can help me discover their secrets.
&c.