• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Help me understand & find the fun in OC/neo-trad play...

pemerton

Legend
I don't recall a version of Rule Zero that specifically mentions, "the story". Which book says that?
I am referring to a blog that is one reasonably authoritative account of "neotrad" RPGing. (Not necessarily fully authoritative - see @Aldarc's posts upthread querying its consistency on some points.)

The blog lists some elements that - in combination - are characteristic of neotrad designs. One of them is:

No rule zero, or golden rule. Self-explanatory.​

White Wolf's "golden rule" is that the GM is free to, and indeed expected to, suspend the resolution rules in the interests of the story. In D&D, which is (as best I know) the source of the "rule zero" phrasing, it would more often be framed in terms of what "makes sense" to the GM, or what the GM "wants to happen" in their game/world. But the core idea is the same: the GM has some aesthetic aspiration that would be contradicted by the upshot of the resolution rules, and hence the GM suspends those rules and establishes their preferred result.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I am referring to a blog that is one reasonably authoritative account of "neotrad" RPGing. (Not necessarily fully authoritative - see @Aldarc's posts upthread querying its consistency on some points.)

The blog lists some elements that - in combination - are characteristic of neotrad designs. One of them is:

No rule zero, or golden rule. Self-explanatory.​

White Wolf's "golden rule" is that the GM is free to, and indeed expected to, suspend the resolution rules in the interests of the story. In D&D, which is (as best I know) the source of the "rule zero" phrasing, it would more often be framed in terms of what "makes sense" to the GM, or what the GM "wants to happen" in their game/world. But the core idea is the same: the GM has some aesthetic aspiration that would be contradicted by the upshot of the resolution rules, and hence the GM suspends those rules and establishes their preferred result.
The core idea is the same, I suppose, but I see a difference between the GM suspending RAW to more accurately (from the GM's point of view) model the situation at hand, vs doing so to serve the narrative or "make a better story". To me at least, those really aren't even the same kind of game, indicative of quite different play priorities.
 

The core idea is the same, I suppose, but I see a difference between the GM suspending RAW to more accurately (from the GM's point of view) model the situation at hand, vs doing so to serve the narrative or "make a better story". To me at least, those really aren't even the same kind of game, indicative of quite different play priorities.
Yes, I think I agree with this. As an example in my current game, we left it at a point where the villain is commanding a dullahan to attack the party by holding it's head. In the next session, they are going to want to separate the head from the villain. There are a number of ways the players might want to try and do this. For example there are the optional disarming rules in the DMG. However, I suspect the barbarian will favour a more literal approach to "disarming", so I will have to rule on that. The rogue might attempt to steal it using slight of hand, but is that really possible if the item in question is being held? And the warlock might want to try and zap it with eldritch blast. But RAW EB can't target objects, and RAW the disarm rules don't apply to spell attacks. But I usually allow "rule of cool". So I am going to have to do some house ruling.

But that's a different thing to simply stepping in to author the outcome. Something I would avoid because it overrides player agency.
 

HaroldTheHobbit

Adventurer
I wonder if my GMing style is neo-trad? I make frames for the campaign and arches, sketching potential baddies and their activities. My session to session prep is modifying those frames depending on the characters actions, maybe create a set piece, adding and further develop NPCs, and setting up/preparing potential complications in the players way based on the players plans and action. In session I just improv and let the players do their thing.

It's a very reactive GMing style, kind of a sandbox with defined but dynamic frames. And all of it is based on the fact that my creativity can never match the players fears, paranoias, bizarre conclusions and wild planning based on wrong and insufficient facts. I just tap into that for my prep and campaign development.
 

pemerton

Legend
The core idea is the same, I suppose, but I see a difference between the GM suspending RAW to more accurately (from the GM's point of view) model the situation at hand, vs doing so to serve the narrative or "make a better story". To me at least, those really aren't even the same kind of game, indicative of quite different play priorities.
Well, they're both examples of RPGing, and in both cases it is an aesthetic preference about the content and character of the fiction that is determining the decision. Whether that preference is about "realism" or about "story" seems like a point of detail when describing the basic structure or working of the rule.

The point the blog is making is that neotrad RPG design eschews a rule with such a structure or working. Rather, the design is intended to ensure that the results produced by the resolution rules will also meet the participants' aesthetic desires for the fiction. This is part of what is meant by saying that neotrad incorporates "indie" design sensibilities and methods.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
First of all, I question the validity of the whole article, but in particular it fails to diffirentiate between the "OC/NeoTrad focuses on optimization" and previous type of play, the "forge". By all means I think D&D 3.5 was a Forge game, it was only shoved into "neotrad" because it was a blanket term for "modern games" author of the article did not like and wanted to whine about. It even shows in the name, since OC is often used in a mocking sense, to describe amateurish characters and shame young creators, often teenagers and kids, for sharing their first creations online and not being at "professional" level. It's there with "Mary sue" of useless terms in character criticism. And "neotrad" basically flattens this to "repackage of trad" and trad itself was a philosophy author of the article mocked he most in previous part. I know OP asked to engage in good faith with this, but it's hard when this is pretty much worst part of the article and clearly has least amount of respect.

So I will refer to the 6th philosophy as "character-focused". And I think it is the opposite of "trad", hencce why I reject the name "neotrad". It's like saying wet is "neodry". Character-focused type of play is one where agency if put firmly in hands of the players and, unlike classic or osr, they are less given a sandmbox and more that regardless what type of campign is being played, their characters goals and motivations are being considered when tailoring plot hooks and storylines. Players are free to pursue their personal goals and GM works with them to make quests and plotlines they want to pursue. If a character-driven style is applied to a module, characters from PC's backstory may replace specific NPCs or villains, or the PC themselves may take a role of an NPC. For example, in a character-focused Curse of Strahd game, the GM may remove characters like Ireena, Ismark or Ezmeralda and present rough outline of their backstories for the PCs to base their characters of. It ensures that if we are telling a story, it's a story where PCs are main characters, not spectators.

This doens't mean the GM is powerless in this type of play. One of important things is player buy-in. This type of game will not tolerate players who show up on a magic school campaign with "Women and Children Too" Pointdexter, Puritan Witchunter who memorized every word of Malleus Maleficarum, nor a player who shows up on a pirate campaign with a heavy-armored dwarf who cannot swim, swore sacred oath to never set foot on a boat and is there to forcibly draft entire party into dwarven army and march into the mountains, to retake long lost dwarven fortress deep in the center of the continent, thousands of miles away from any body of water. In fact, I have heard advice it may even be a mistake to come to a session with preexisting idea of a character and you should build your pcs together with other players, so that they mesh well thematically. Even more extreme approach would be to, when creating a new world, worldbuild with the players, asking them to say what concept they have and then together shape their character's homeland and people. Another thing may be to allow Instead of GM working against players or to challenge them, GM and players work to create the story together (tho GM can and should still challenge the players to keep things exciting and interesting).

Another important thing is that the world reacts to PCs decisions and actions. If they leave the city without solving the zombie problem, it will be overrun by zombies. If PCs decide to steal 100k from an NPC and buy themselves a castle for it, you let them, but the NPC may come after them or someone may contest the ownership of the castle. PC are allowed to do things with a chance of failure but without DM shutting them down or railroading, but their actions have consequences, both good or bad. In fact, this type of game encourages "success at a cost" mechanics, where PC can succeed, but something negative will still happen, thus tying their problems to their own actions.
This so much. The kind of gameplay "neotrad" seems to describe requires games where without fail a single player can trivially grind them to an immediate collapse towards death spiral of the game itself if they drop the ball in ways like you describe. That death spiral of play either takes the form of superman's world of cardboard where it doesn't fit or everyone else at the table losing interest because they are shifting gears from anything world & character focused to keeping bob from destroying the game.

With it out in the open that the "vast majority" of people discussing it "aren't involved with it, don't like it, and only know it second hand" I feel confident highlighting those kinds of results because I do like and have run so many games☆ that should fit under what neotrad claims to be (various flavors of fate, savageworlds, fiasco, etc). When the "neotrad" writeup along with so many descriptions of it not even hinting at such things makes understanding how it could possibly work incredibly difficult. So much of what gets written about what "neotrad" as a play style really feels like trying to describe those types of games while only having experience with d&d or similar and using that experience to fill in the blanks after hearing about them. Looking at it through that sort of lens clears up a lot of the conflicting & confusing writeups

☆more than one of them was an ongoing weekly game open to anyone who shows up to play it at a flgs too
 

This is the scale though. Sure your game is the 1 where you have non trigged events happen, but a lot of Neo T games are the 10 where everything must be player driven.


Right.

The first part is just the pure DM whim. The DM simply decides to have an events happen, 100% independent of anything the characters have done. But it is not random...it is just the players don't know the "why".

And the second part is that it is not linked to the main plot or story at all. It is just an event.
Got any data to back this up? No games I know are like this. Its bad gm advice
 

I bash nothing, just show the differences.

For a lot of Neo T games, things only happen when and if the characters do or don't do actions.

In a Traditional game, things happen on the DMs whim.....independent of whatever the characters do.
You have vleaely never read a neotrad game. No free league game is like this. No game I have designed or played or written is like this. You have no sources or evidenced, just an insane baseless claim
 

This so much. The kind of gameplay "neotrad" seems to describe requires games where without fail a single player can trivially grind them to an immediate collapse towards death spiral of the game itself if they drop the ball in ways like you describe. That death spiral of play either takes the form of superman's world of cardboard where it doesn't fit or everyone else at the table losing interest because they are shifting gears from anything world & character focused to keeping bob from destroying the game.

With it out in the open that the "vast majority" of people discussing it "aren't involved with it, don't like it, and only know it second hand" I feel confident highlighting those kinds of results because I do like and have run so many games☆ that should fit under what neotrad claims to be (various flavors of fate, savageworlds, fiasco, etc). When the "neotrad" writeup along with so many descriptions of it not even hinting at such things makes understanding how it could possibly work incredibly difficult. So much of what gets written about what "neotrad" as a play style really feels like trying to describe those types of games while only having experience with d&d or similar and using that experience to fill in the blanks after hearing about them. Looking at it through that sort of lens clears up a lot of the conflicting & confusing writeups

☆more than one of them was an ongoing weekly game open to anyone who shows up to play it at a flgs too
Can you maybe go start another thread and stop insisting we who like the style are making stuff up or that we have no experience? Also ths bolded is such a crazy assertion when FREE LEAGUE DEFINED THE IDEA LOL
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top