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D&D 5E Help me understand & find the fun in OC/neo-trad play...

overgeeked

B/X Known World
No one ever said the DM needs to fit all player ideas into their story. You pick the ones you like and incorporate those, and ignore the ones that don't fit in with what you were planning for your story.
Yeah for sure I've only played at a handful of tables, but what has me the most confused is people using Critical Role as an example of the DM somehow having no control over the story
This is the bit that really stops me cold. I pull back hard from the notion of there being any kind of planned story in RPGs. Whatever story an RPG can have should be purely emergent from play. A combination of the referee's prep, the players' choices, and the dice.

To you is the referee pre-planning a story a definitional part of OC/neo-trad? Other posters seem to disagree with that.
 

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Distracted DM

Distracted DM
what is "transmog"?
You have this old +1 sword of fish-rending that you love the appearance of.
You find this +4 sword of dragon-slaying that is way better mechanically, but it looks "meh."

Since you own the +1 sword of fish-rending, you can "transmogrify" your +4 sword of dragon-slaying to LOOK like the +1 sword, but it'll have the +4 dragon-rending stats.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You have this old +1 sword of fish-rending that you love the appearance of.
You find this +4 sword of dragon-slaying that is way better mechanically, but it looks "meh."

Since you own the +1 sword of fish-rending, you can "transmogrify" your +4 sword of dragon-slaying to LOOK like the +1 sword, but it'll have the +4 dragon-rending stats.
So just aesthetic stuff? Ok, thanks.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It's more than that. Neotrad screams to a certain type of problem player...

Mod note:
This is a (+) thread. Your commentary is pretty clearly not on board with the premise, and you are engaging in trying to tear down a playstyle you don't personally like.

It is okay for you not to like it. But this isn't the thread to express that dislike. Please take it elsewhere.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It's an honest one from direct experience with self-identified OC/neo-trad players. I've posted many times about players who rage-quit when a cantrip didn't make them an Avatar-style bending master, about players who rage-quit when their character took 1 hp of damage, more recently a player who rage-quit because I did not follow her desired story beat exactly. I'm not generalizing the broader style. Only relaying my experience with some players who said this was their style. And that's honestly why I started the thread, to try to understand what I was missing.

What you are missing is that there are players in every style that cause problems. That's not about the style, it is about how humans sometimes have issues.
 

zakael19

Adventurer
This is the bit that really stops me cold. I pull back hard from the notion of there being any kind of planned story in RPGs. Whatever story an RPG can have should be purely emergent from play. A combination of the referee's prep, the players' choices, and the dice.

To you is the referee pre-planning a story a definitional part of OC/neo-trad? Other posters seem to disagree with that.

Oh for sure, you know quite well the vast majority of play today is based off some degree of pre-planned plot; either via published AP/Campaign or home-brew. As other posters have pointed out, Neo-trad as a category/play style tries to capture a type of game where the PCs are bound into that plot (or into side content). The fact there's a planned plot is the "trad" bit, yeah?

Ideally with a well built OC, there's some degree of good background hooks the DM can grab and implement easily to build in cool twists/PC relevance. IF you want any of the big-name AP stuff you'll see this, where "Boom plot twist so and so is your old mentor/the guy you insulted back in the first session/etc." That sort of thing can feel very gratifying, based on how much people like it.

An example from a game I'm running right now, using the published Call of the Netherdeep content: we established in session 0 that one PC had been left for dead by the rest of his patrol after they betrayed him. He's been interested in revenge ever since. I then added his old patrol as enforcers for an organized crime gang in a city the adventure paths to - so he could do some stuff to find rumors of them, and track them down. He discovered that, did some RP around etching their names into great swords to impale them with (I don't think he's ok), and has notched 2/3 so far.
 
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Reynard

Legend
Supporter
Honestly, just based on the responses in this thread, I don't buy it. It doesn't have an agreed upon definition, so it isn't actually a thing. Some person wrote up a list and some other people propagated that list, but it doesn't actually represent anything actual or real.

God I hate jargon for jargon's sake.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
First, sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. Long evening with friends.
Yeah. That aspect is basically a non-starter for me.
Yeah, it's not my thing, either. I expect and enjoy some amount of ... making the characters effective, but past a point it doesn't seem to me to have a point.
Re: pre-written stories. Yeah, that sounds like what I’ve done before. Everything is emergent rather than pre-ordained. I don’t think I could stand to run games another way.
I generally have at least some of a situation together before it hits the table, but it's not wildly uncommon for it to change after. Even if I have some idea for how a thing will go (which is usually based on how I've seen the players run their characters) I'm not committed to anything.
Re: backstories. Ugh. I’ve tried that a few times. The players either ignore the obvious backstory hook or get mad that it doesn’t play out exactly how they wanted it to. It honestly felt like I was supposed to just stay out of their way as the referee and validate the story they wrote and pretend dice rolls were involved. Any change or hint of challenge, obstacle, etc in their path was met with…less than ideal responses.
I generally start a given campaign by getting the characters in the same place at the same time and throwing [stuff] at a convenient fan. The situation evolves and expands from there, and typically I manage to thread in a thing or three from various backstories, so that when the PCs wrap up the starting situation they have multiple directions to go.

I have had PCs choose not to pursue a given thing, but I've never had them refuse to pursue all the things they've uncovered connected to their backstories. Also, all the players I've had have been clear I was looking for information about their characters' pasts, and that their futures weren't written yet, that their backstories might arise in ways they weren't expecting. This hasn't been a problem (yet).
Also re: backstories. How do you communicate…politely…to players that only a few relevant bullet points of their backstory are sufficient to play and that reading pages and pages of backstory is not what you signed up for?
In my last call for backstories, I said something to the effect that the players should keep in mind that their characters were basically at the beginnings of their stories, and their backstories should reflect that in both amount and in content. I've had players give me more than 10,000 words of backstory before, and I agree that can be a lot to sort through to find what you need as GM, but I haven't ever asked for any given length of backstory. The ones I write--which I sometimes do, as something like an exercise, tend to be somewhere in the 250-750 word range, mostly toward the shorter end of that.

In my most recent campaign, I gave the players a 5500-ish word write up of the city they were starting in, told them they were all long-time residents (no fish-out-of-water), asked them to tell me about people, places, group, and events in the city and how their characters were connected to them, and asked them to make sure that each PC specifically knew two others (though they were all nodding acquaintances). This sort of thing is, I think, also neo-trad.
 

TiQuinn

Registered User
I think that’s where I’ve had problems. I’m not a fan of pure “I just win all the time” power fantasy.

What little isekai I’ve read or watched still has obstacles, setbacks, losing, etc all the normal things you’d expect from a story.

When I’ve played with OC/neo-trad players they’ve seemingly all wanted the former (“I just win”) without the latter (obstacles, setbacks, etc).
I don’t get this at all. Like even if you wanna be Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star, everyone knows the best part of the trilogy is finding Darth Vader is his father after getting beat down by him. It makes Return of the Jedi all the better.

You gotta hope the DM throws some challenges at you and twists that’ll create drama. That’s the GOOD stuff!
 

TiQuinn

Registered User
Honestly, just based on the responses in this thread, I don't buy it. It doesn't have an agreed upon definition, so it isn't actually a thing. Some person wrote up a list and some other people propagated that list, but it doesn't actually represent anything actual or real.

God I hate jargon for jargon's sake.
Yeah I’m with you. I’ve heard this a couple of times and was curious and it just doesn’t amount to anything that makes real sense.
 

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