Help Me Understand the GURPS Design Perspective

[Dannyalcatraz]

In Marvel Heroic RP, the plot point that (as per @aramis erak's post upthread) allows Batman's player to delcare that Batman has such-and-such a gadget on him that he prepared earlier for just such a contingency is not a resource the character has. The resource the character has is the gadget. And the capabilities the character has include skill in prepraging gadgets, and cleverness in anticpating when they'll be needed. The plot point is a resource that the player has which s/he can spend in accordance with the rules of the game.

But if it doesn’t make sense- a device operating faster than it has any reason to be able to- that’s a solution that creates more problems.

(This isn’t unique to comics. You see it in all kinds of fiction.)

Wouldn't this be on the player? (At least primarily.)

The GM is the one who has to make sure the solution fits within the setting universe, not just now, but at any point in the future if/when the situation arises, not players.

Given the speeds at which you are saying Superman can move, in fact he can do everything worth doing in the context of a RPG scenario effectively simultaneously.

That’s not me saying it, it’s DC Comics writers. And yes, people have pointed this out as a big problem.

This is a more general question that arises in any superhero fiction (and often in genre fiction more generally). In some Marvel comics (I think 70s Super-Villain Team-Ups) Magneto could control minds by manipulating blood flow in the brain by manipulating the iron in the blood. Why not do it all the time?

Agreed.

Superman can (you've been emphasising) travel much much faster than light, yet he doesn't race around the world stopping every act of violence, or taking every gun from every villain, before anyone can react.

Yup.

Or more likely, taking those weapons from everyone, because moving that fast, he may not be able to ascertain which of all the living statues he encounters were actually the aggressors, because he isn’t all-seeing either, and presumably, as a mortal being, even he needs to rest.

(They did a storyline along those lines decades ago, hen he took out all the nukes, Don't recall how that one ended, though.)

Of course, what’s to stop someone from rearming themselves when he does so?

First he gets the guns. Then the knives. Then the rocks. Then the poin-ted sticks. Then the bananas. It’s a never ending job, protecting humans from themselves. Logically, the only way to solve the problem of human on human violence is to get rid of all the humans.

(OK, that’s more of a Sci-Fi storyline, not very comic book-y...at least not for fallen heroes.)

Just like readers do (whether for an official No-Prize, or not) in a RPG we can construct our own explicit or implicit rationalistaions. And the system mechanics establish the rationing (eg in MHRP the GM can establish that Dr Doom was really a Doombot, but that costs points; Nick Fury can turn out to really be a Life Model Decoy, but that costs points; etc).

Playing a superhero game with the mindset and aesthetic expectations of ASL seems misguided.

ASL?

You give your own counterexamples to this.

Of course- I want honest discussion, and not pointing out known exceptions exist wouldn’t be right.

But this is incoherent. In our world, the very same things that explain the square-cube law make it the case that there are no Pym particles or cosmic radiation as those things exist in the Marvel Universes.

Agreed. And no subatomic worlds for the Hulk to visit.

There's no physics there - in the sense of a systematic body of knowledge that explains the fundamental ways that the world is. It's all tropes - the use of particular vocabulary, paritcular sorts of fictional framing, etc - used to tell a story.

Agreed.

But the more you have to contort to answer the question ”why/how did this happen?”, the worse the story becomes. Can you think of anyone into superheroes who thought the static electricity explanation for Spidey’s wall-walking was anything besides extremely bad writing?

 

[dbm]

Genre conventions are, by my definition, plot armour.

This is the key, in my opinion. Super hero comics usually pit heroes again ‘appropriate’ enemies, which works fine in isolation but really stretches credibility when put into a more flexible RPG context. ‘What would happen if Superman went berserk in Batman’ is a non-question in the comics, as that just wouldn’t happen. I don’t claim to have read all the Batman vs Superman comics but I really doubt it has happened.

RPGs with built in mechanisms for genre conventions (e.g. having campaign aspects in Fate) can mechanically enforce these. For everyone else, there is the social contract. And if you can’t agree on a social contact with your table for a game then it is simply the case that this game and system combo won’t work for your table.

 

[pemerton]

But the more you have to contort to answer the question ”why/how did this happen?”, the worse the story becomes. Can you think of anyone into superheroes who thought the static electricity explanation for Spidey’s wall-walking was anything besides extremely bad writing?

I'm not familiar with that; it sounds a bit midichlorian-like. And like mid-chlorians, it seems to be the result of an attempt to transform genre tropes into would-be scientifid explanations.

The reason that Spidey can walk on walls is because he was bitten by a radioactive spider. We don't need more explanation than that! (And no more expalanation than that is available.)

But if it doesn’t make sense- a device operating faster than it has any reason to be able to- that’s a solution that creates more problems.

(This isn’t unique to comics. You see it in all kinds of fiction.)

<snip>

That’s not me saying it, it’s DC Comics writers. And yes, people have pointed this out as a big problem.

If you think this sort of thing is a big problem, then I don't see how you can take superheroes very seriously as a genre? (Except very austere versions, perhaps, like Watchmen? Maybe the Phantom?)

I've always assumed that if someone wants to play a supers RPG, then they're prepared to just suck up issues like superfast heroes nevertheless sometimes being too slow, or The Hulk's pants not tearing, etc.

ASL?

Advanced Squad Leader.

 

[pemerton]

This is the key, in my opinion. Super hero comics usually pit heroes again ‘appropriate’ enemies, which works fine in isolation but really stretches credibility when put into a more flexible RPG context.work for your table.

But superheroes also includes teams as part of the genre. And those teams can be like the Avengers (Hawkeye together with Beast together with Thor) or the New Mutants (Cypher with Wolfsbane with Sunspot and Cannonball).

A RPG that is going to do justice to this genre needs to be able to manage story impact of a character in different terms from physical impact or scientifically ascertainable impact. This is what GURPS struggles with; whereas HeroQuest revised or Marvel Heroic RP have no trouble with it.

 

[dbm]

A RPG that is going to do justice to this genre needs to be able to manage story impact of a character in different terms from physical impact or scientifically ascertainable impact whilst being fun to play

Fixed that for you

I jest, but my group simply bounce off HeroQuest, Fate, Cortex+ and other games with a strong narrative viewpoint as opposed to a (for want of a better word...) simulationist view point. So, for my group GURPS with its limitations would be a better super hero system than Marvel Heroic.

I would never try to sell GURPS as the answer to every question of ‘what system should I play for X’ for everyone. But for some people it is the right answer. A better answer than Cortex+ etc.

The OP wanted to understand GURPS so they can decide for themselves if it would be a good game for them. Hopefully the information being provided by people who play GURPS is helping with that.

 

[macd21]

Sometimes.

But if Supes simply snapped with no precursors, Bats would have to be an Oracle or time traveler to avoid:
View attachment 115528

RPG plot armor mechanics- to me- handle this much worse than DM fiat, which usually works worse than the actual plot armor comic book writers.

Plot armor mechanics- for the most part- depend on resources the character has. Like the comic book writer, though, the GM has no such restraint.

Batman having access to personal time travel devices to save himself from a suddenly rogue Kryptonian would require some serious ‘splainin; a GM using a time traveling NPC to save Batman really doesn’t.

IMO if you want to run a game with Batman and Superman in the same team, then you need to accept some compromises. And IMO DM Fiat is inferior to giving the players the tools to handle these issues. Superman snaps and attacks Batman? PC spends a Batpoint: ‘Good thing Superman gave me a kryptonite ring to defend myself with if he ever went rogue!’ Things continue to escalate. Spends second : ‘looks like it’s time to get out my armoury of kryptonite weapons that I keep for emergencies!’ Superman continues to be unreasonable. Third Batpoint: ‘I set off the Kryptonite Nuke.’

 

[Umbran]

Umbran, I’m criticizing from the basis of the comic books’ actual storylines.

As I said - if you have a problem with the genre itself, we can't help you with that. We cannot change the genre itself - we can at best munge a game system into emulating it..

It should also be noted that in previous panels in that sequence, he says he knows what his top speed is...but that he hasn’t traveled like this ”since Pa.” AFAIK, at no point is there an indication that- like the Flash- he has traveled through time.

Note: Flash typically needs the "Cosmic Treadmill" to travel in time. His speed alone is not sufficient.

So, even if “trillion mph“ punch is off, according to the writers creating the DC universe, Superman can indeed travel several orders of magnitude faster than light in normal space. Maybe not all day, every day, but occasionally is enough to be problematic.

Except, of course, the real issue here is not the action, so much as it is the nonsensical labels the writers put on it. Whether Superman knows what an attosecond is isn't the issue - whether the writers do is.

So, again, I say you are getting mussed up by how a genre with inconsistent physics is using physics words, and then holding it to that by putting it into a physics simulation, and finding issues with the results...

Well, what else did you expect?

The thing that's been said several times, which seems to be getting ignored, is that the physics simulation form does not work well for superhero comics!. Should I say that in all caps, so it comes across?

PHYSICS SIM GAMES (and interpretations) DON'T WORK WELL FOR SUPERHERO COMICS!

Thik of this instead in terms of the narrative. Superman does not have the power: "moves faster than light". He really has the power, "moves at the speed of plot". When he pushes to the point seem in the segment you show, from our perspective, what is going on is the GM is asking, "How much do you want to put into saving her? You may be able to do it, but it'll cost you..."

If, in the stated scenario, Batman is indeed badass enough to anticipate that previously perfectly fine Superman with that kind of speed & power is homicidally snapping RIGHT NOW so well that he survives, he has no business being outwitted by The Joker or Bane.

Again, with asking for consistency?

Superman comics are not true crime novels. Nor are they biographies. They are mythologies. Mythology isn't clean, or consistent. Mythology is built over generations by various authors, and sometimes the stories don't mesh too well. Asking DC comics depictions of Superman over the decades to be consistent is like asking the musical Camelot, Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, and Peter David's Knight Life, to be consistent.

They are consistent in THEME. Not in the specifics of what characters can physically do.

....so he‘s hyper aware of Kryptonian psychology and microexpression? Or his in particular? Do Kryptonians HAVE microexpressions? Hell- do Kryptonians change from sane to insane at humanlike speeds, or are they faster? Or slower?

Fictionally, Superman is positioned as an immigrant with superpowers. He grew up among us - his displayed emotions and reactions are entirely human, as are those of other Kryptonians. Kryptonians blend in with humans perfectly, without setting off anyone's sense of the uncanny valley. Humans behave like Kryptonians. Same for Daxamites, who are positioned as alternate Kryptonians. Anyone who knows evolutionary science would take this to be complete horsepucky, but we are also talking about a universe in which you have multiple species with outward morphology that's basically indistinguishible from each other anyway.

If you want a character who might not signal as a human being, you want Martian Manhunter, who is positioned as an Alien Among Us. J'onn J'onzz is frequently depicted with what humans would call a flat affect, and hard to read. J'onn also has occaisional trouble understanding human choices, and humans sometimes don't quite get him. He can pass when he wants to, because he can also shapeshift and read minds to meet expectations, but sometimes he doesn't use that power. He is, however, not quite as strong or fast, so he doesn't pose the same problems as Superman, either.

Even for The World’s Greatest Detective, anticipating Supes‘ trigger flipping would require great fortune indeed.

Well, he is a god. Not just in the "among the most powerful" sense, but in the mythological sense.

I‘m not positing brawn beats brains 100% either, but I AM saying there are times when Batman can and will be caught flat and unprepared, and will not be able to save himself or the person he’s trying to save.

Sure. Game mechanics do not ensure success. We are only arguing that you apply the mechanic rather than pre-decide, "Bats can't succeed at this."

That’s how Bane beat him.

So, let's go back to one of the very first superhero role playing games - "FASERIP" Marvel Super Heroes. It had the concept of "karma points". Characters of a given power level could stretch their abilities up to higher levels... but it cost them Karma. When they ran out of karma, they were at the mercy of dice.

So, for our purposes... Bats ran out of Karma. And then, he's a little more vulnerable.

I didn’t say he was unreadable, but he IS an alien. Just because he looks like us doesn’t mean he has all the same kind of tells as we do. They may count megalomaniacs (Zod), serial killers (Faora) and psychopaths (Rog-Ar) among their number, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to react to a Rorschach test like an insane human.

Except, they totally do. I mean, in canon, it is all over the place that Superman's expressions are entirely human - he hangs his head when ashamed or sad. He furrows his brow and grits his teeth when angry. He smiles and laughs. Imagine - Clark Kent and Lois Lane will not be attracted to each other if their sub-conscious tells are not readable to each other! The comics very specifically draw Kryptonians and Daxamites with entirely human expressions. For whatever reason, they are exactly like humans in these respects.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

....so he‘s hyper aware of Kryptonian psychology and microexpression? Or his in particular?

We know that Batman is very aware of Martian body language, and J'onn is probably a better actor than Clark is. Of course, that's not really the deciding factor here, after choosing "Hino Rei" for a pseudonym.

Spoiler

 

[Umbran]

We know that Batman is very aware of Martian body language, and J'onn is probably a better actor than Clark is.

Nice catch!

Of course, that's not really the deciding factor here, after choosing "Hino Rei" for a pseudonym.

He thought the name "Ford Prefect" would be nicely inconspicuous...

 

[aramis erak]

ASL generally refers to either American Sign Language or Advanced Squad Leader.