Blasphemonkey
First Post
A rogue by any other name is just as...I don't know, roguey?
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HELP! Rogue/Ranger Tiefling too powerful?!
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Blasphemonkey
First Post
sithramir said:
Actually, since he has a level in Ranger, he gets Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity as "virtual" feats. Ambidexterity cancels out that penalty you mentioned above. And yes, he is wearing light armor, Elven Chain, which he coerced the group into buying for him (how rogueish of him, so it makes sense in game, as someone said earlier). When you figure this in, it looks like he really does get NINE feats:
1st level character.....Dodge
Ranger 1..................Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity
Tiefling.....................Weapon Finesse (in MM entry)
3rd level character.....Fiendish Bloodline
Fighter 2..................2 fighter feats - Mobility, Twin Sword Style
6th level character.....Outsider Wings
Needless to say, he is a level too high. All this time I've thought he is Ranger 1/Rogue 3/Fighter 1, but he has two levels in fighter. So I'm knocking him down a level, which doesn't thrill him of course, but he seems to understand. He's rolling 1d10 and subtracting those HP's, BAB and base save are going down, and we're nixing a feat (probably Twin Sword Style). I'm letting him keep the batwings even before his next feat of Outsider Wings when he gets level 6, just to make sense in-game ("wings are gone," "oh, they grew back now..."), and to be nice, again.
But that will be the next feat chosen anyway.The skills I'll leave for the purposes of making it easier on both of us (and also to be nice), but he is not increasing them when he goes up to next level, of course.
So yes, I have spoken to him, and he seems agreeable enough. He is taking the Fiendish Bloodline feat, and taking Mobility in place of Spring Attack (since you really can't have the latter without the former anyway).
His AC was a bit high, mainly because he has a buckler on his arm, which he wasn't aware that when he attacked with two swords, the armor bonus was cancelled out (and he should've been attacking with a penalty as well, on the off hand). So he's passing that on to another party member. The elven chain he thought was +1 for some reason, which it never was. So his AC is now 20. Base 10 + 5 Armor Bonus + 4 Dex + 1 Misc (Ring of Protection + 1) = 20 AC. He wrote 23, and I have no idea where that extra point of AC came from.
Regarding the Darkness ability, I've ruled that no, he can't see in them. Thanks for the advice on that. A rogue that can cast Darkness and see in it, is even more powerful than an improved invis'ed rogue.
I think that's it. He skipped some prereq's and somehow got one level higher than he should've been, and made a mistake on 2 points of AC. That's where the problems came from. Ahhh, I feel much better now. If anyone thinks I still have anything in error, please tell me. Thanks again everyone for all your help.
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Unless I'm mistaken, with Ambi and TWF, you're still fighting at -2 / -2.. it's Superior or some other "Bester than Bestest TWF" in the Tempest PRC that totally negates penalties from having more than one weapon active at the same time. Combat section in the PHB has a chart.. regardless, there's no way someone wielding two weapons is not taking penalties for it without more than just Ambi and TWF.
Also, Unfortunately for the Tief, a 3rd level character with any combination of Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger is not going to be able to get Fiendish Bloodline. The Prereq requires a Base Save of +1 in all stats (not total save.. Base- what's on the class charts), and none of the classes have a Good Will save (all have poor) so he's pretty much waiting until his level 6 feat just for Fiendish BLine. With the slow progression of will saves after that, he's looking at picking up Outsider Wings at level 9, or more likely, level 12 if you're playing it by the book.
If you're going to be so nice to him, I'd consider being nice to that dwarven fighter with the inferior stats and poor armor and general bleh comparison to this broken tiefling fellow. Actually, I wouldn't consider being nice to the fighter at all, because I wouldn't be generous with the Tiefling to begin with- my thought process being along the lines of: "If I let Tom have a bonus, Jim should have one and Bill should and Mork should and Jeb should get one too and then everyone will have one and what havoc will this spawn for the next six months of the campaign? Aiiee!"
My biggest recommendation would be to sit next to him, totally deconstruct his character and reconstruct it as you have partially done with checking his armor class and docking him a level. If this is a matter of fairness, where players who aren't asking for power in flavor (*says* "wings are cool" *thinks* and let me be invulnerable to a Tarrasque and most random animals/beasts/ground traps/melee threats), then you really ought to be considering being 100% fair- ie, going all the way with making the character correct in the rules rather than only partially.
Bending in character creation can be, in some instances, really enriching for a character.. alternatively, it can be very imbalancing in the play that results from it (nevermind the potential for animosity that happens from Jim screwing up his feats and math and coming out on top for it while those walking the straight and narrow are left out).
Retconning his flight capabilities completely until he gets the feat could be easily justified by giving him a wand of flight with two charges left in it.. and he was just making bluff checks with his otherwise primarily decorative wings he hopes to use one day.
But- to each their own. I've never experienced a campaign where anything other than Exactly What The Rules State was the case when it came to character creation. It's just what i'd feel most comfortable with, either as the guy playing the tiefling, or the others who'd be playing with the tiefling, or the guy having to be referee for the lot of them.
Also, Unfortunately for the Tief, a 3rd level character with any combination of Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger is not going to be able to get Fiendish Bloodline. The Prereq requires a Base Save of +1 in all stats (not total save.. Base- what's on the class charts), and none of the classes have a Good Will save (all have poor) so he's pretty much waiting until his level 6 feat just for Fiendish BLine. With the slow progression of will saves after that, he's looking at picking up Outsider Wings at level 9, or more likely, level 12 if you're playing it by the book.
If you're going to be so nice to him, I'd consider being nice to that dwarven fighter with the inferior stats and poor armor and general bleh comparison to this broken tiefling fellow. Actually, I wouldn't consider being nice to the fighter at all, because I wouldn't be generous with the Tiefling to begin with- my thought process being along the lines of: "If I let Tom have a bonus, Jim should have one and Bill should and Mork should and Jeb should get one too and then everyone will have one and what havoc will this spawn for the next six months of the campaign? Aiiee!"
My biggest recommendation would be to sit next to him, totally deconstruct his character and reconstruct it as you have partially done with checking his armor class and docking him a level. If this is a matter of fairness, where players who aren't asking for power in flavor (*says* "wings are cool" *thinks* and let me be invulnerable to a Tarrasque and most random animals/beasts/ground traps/melee threats), then you really ought to be considering being 100% fair- ie, going all the way with making the character correct in the rules rather than only partially.
Bending in character creation can be, in some instances, really enriching for a character.. alternatively, it can be very imbalancing in the play that results from it (nevermind the potential for animosity that happens from Jim screwing up his feats and math and coming out on top for it while those walking the straight and narrow are left out).
Retconning his flight capabilities completely until he gets the feat could be easily justified by giving him a wand of flight with two charges left in it.. and he was just making bluff checks with his otherwise primarily decorative wings he hopes to use one day.
But- to each their own. I've never experienced a campaign where anything other than Exactly What The Rules State was the case when it came to character creation. It's just what i'd feel most comfortable with, either as the guy playing the tiefling, or the others who'd be playing with the tiefling, or the guy having to be referee for the lot of them.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Blasphemonkey said:
Actually ambidexterity + TWF gets you to -2/-2 on attacks. Check the "fighting with two weapons" table in the PHB. Nothing (except for a few broken prestige classes) lowers than penalty.
Another problem here -- he does not get the Weapon Finesse feat that Tieflings in the MM get. MM tieflings get that because they're 1st level monsters -- your player already gets his 1st level feat. So scratch another one.
Unless a race specifically says it gets a free feat in the racial description (not the MM description), it doesn't get it. Tiefling is otherwise a normal race -- so he's got 3 player-selected feats total (1st, 3d, Ftr 1) when you get done correcting his character levels, plus the ranger bonus feats.
As another note, I assume you're ignoring the regional feat prerequisites. Fiendish Bloodline requires the character to be from Mulhorand, Thay, or Unther; Twin Sword Style requires the character to be from Sembia, Waterdeep, or be a drow -- so if you're using those prereq's, the character can't take both feats.
No charge.
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Blasphemonkey
First Post
Olgar Shiverstone said:
Huh. You're right, look at that. The description in Ambidexterity is a little misleading. Well, here we go. More bad news for Mr. Tiefling.
Looks like I have to read all about Tiefling in Races of Faerun, or is that in the Forgotten Realms Campaign book? I'm learning more and more that to be safe, the DM either has to only allow what's in the core books, or shell out the cash for all those builder and add-on books. Sheesh.
No charge.
Thank the great Pelor! I need the money to buy some more books!
"Now, lessee...if I buy all the 3.5 core books, Races of Faerun, Forgotten Realms Campaign, and all the class-builder books, that comes out to how much? Oops!" {whips out charge card}
Blasphemonkey
First Post
clark411 said:
Yep, you are right on that, as someone else mentioned. (But you said it first so you get a prize...fiendish banana's incoming! Roll for initiative!)
Actually, a 3rd level rogue has +1/+3/+1 base saves, so that does qualify. He started play at 4th level (ECL 5), and was at that point a Rogue 3/Ranger 1.
I am going to seriously recommend to the group that the next time they get into town, they buy the dwarf some good armor and a magical weapon. If that doesn't work, I'll start planting items around that purposefully won't do the Tiefling much good. (Is Full Plate too powerful for 6th level?)
I like this idea, very clever of you.
I'm giving it some thought. Thanks, Clark411!Blasphemonkey said:
Full Plate is easily within the realm of what a 3rd level character might be able to afford, at 1500 gp. Also, given the bonus starting wealth for Forgotten Realms characters (detailed in the FRCS) the dwarven fighter could have easily started off with a masterwork weapon or armor at 1st level, so he really has been running around with that scale a little too long.
Reccommended wealth for 6th level characters is 13,000gp, so Full Plate+1, a +1 Weapon , Gauntlets of Ogre Strength wouldn't be reamotely out of line, by the "roolz".
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Blasphemonkey said:
Only if he took his first three character levels as a Rogue. Order matters. If the third level was Rog2/Rgr1, he wouldn't qualify for the Fiendish Bloodline feat at 3rd level, because at 3rd level he'd still have a +0 save.
FRCS has the basic racial stats (and Twin Sword Style feat); Races of Faerun has the outsider feats. Since the player's using them, I assume he has them -- just borrow them and read the appropriate sections.
If there are any lessons to be learned here for DM's, they are (1) check your players' work, 'cause they'll make mistakes, and (2) make sure you read the races/class/feat/skill/spell descriptions yourself, so you know what they can/can't do, and how they work. It doesn't matter how much you trust your players; there is no substitute for understanding the mechanics yourself.
Enjoy!
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I wouldn't do it like that. He already has nearly max HPs and with a little luck he will roll low on the d10 to be subtracted and then high on the new roll when he regains the level. He could end up with more HP than max! It would be better to subtract the last number rolled (if he can remember it) or an average of his previous rolls (adjusted for the fact that they were not all d10s). Then, when he regains the level, let him roll again. Currently, he his HD is 3d6+3d10+12 and he has 47 HPs, right?Blasphemonkey said:
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