Help with Rogue

[illwizard]

G'day there,

I'm relatively new to playing 4th edition, coming up to my third game as a player after having DM'd a group through KotS. I'm playing a 1st level halfling artful dodger rogue and I've just found out from my DM that the campaign will be leaning towards an undead theme. Now this is cool and all but I usually wouldn't have made a rogue if I'd known about this from the start.

So I was wondering what sort of things I could possibly do to give my character a bit of an edge against undead as I don't want to change PC's. I've had a bit of a look through the core books but haven't found much really and I don't have access to Open Grave as yet which I assume would be useful. I thought maybe I could multiclass somewhere for radiant powers perhaps? So if anyone has done something similar or has any ideas I'd be appreciative.

If it'll help his stats are (I think) Str-8, Con-13, Dex-18, Int-13, Wis-11, Cha-16, current feat is Backstabber (Sneak attack affects undead in this edition I think??). Cheers

 

[Smeelbo]

Since I hardly DM 4E, I've avoided reading most of the Monster Manual (which I avoided for 3.5 as well), because I want to be surprised. However, here is what I understand about 4E undead, compared to 3.5.

1) They are subject to Sneak Attack and Critical hits.
2) They often deal Necrotic damage, and often vulnerable to Radiant damage.
3) Insubstantial creatures are not as invulnerable as 3.5.
4) Many are immune to fear, charm, and so on.

So you needn't worry as much as you might think. Sly Flourish works on undead just fine, as does Sneak Attack. I think the main thing you probably have to worry about is insubstantial flying undead.

You'll want a weapon that deals Radiant damage, and armor that resists Necrotic damage, and a lot of mobility, both for getting around, and getting the heck out of dodge when things go south. Being a halfling, you have +5 save vs. Fear, so that helps. Radiant damage once per encounter is hardly enough, so I'd forgoe M/C Paladin.

Backstabber is a sucker's bet compared to Nimble Blade.

Smeelbo

 

[Eldorian]

Since I hardly DM 4E, I've avoided reading most of the Monster Manual (which I avoided for 3.5 as well), because I want to be surprised. However, here is what I understand about 4E undead, compared to 3.5.

1) They are subject to Sneak Attack and Critical hits.
2) They often deal Necrotic damage, and often vulnerable to Radiant damage.
3) Insubstantial creatures are not as invulnerable as 3.5.
4) Many are immune to fear, charm, and so on.

So you needn't worry as much as you might think. Sly Flourish works on undead just fine, as does Sneak Attack. I think the main thing you probably have to worry about is insubstantial flying undead.

You'll want a weapon that deals Radiant damage, and armor that resists Necrotic damage, and a lot of mobility, both for getting around, and getting the heck out of dodge when things go south. Being a halfling, you have +5 save vs. Fear, so that helps. Radiant damage once per encounter is hardly enough, so I'd forgoe M/C Paladin.

Backstabber is a sucker's bet compared to Nimble Blade.

Smeelbo

He is correct. Halfling rogue is a safe bet in an "against the undead" campaign. It's not as good as the new Avenger if ALL you fight are undead, perhaps, but good enough. Rogues aren't SoL against undead like they were last edition, and overall are a more powerful class in combat.

If you wanna go hardcore, when PHB 2 comes out you can make a full party of divine characters that all do radiant damage out the wazzo. Paladin, Cleric, Invoker, Avenger. You'll level up fast, cause the DM will have to throw more enemies at you to keep you challenged.

 

[tanj]

Backstabber is a sucker's bet compared to Nimble Blade.

+2 average damage vs. +1 to hit. When you consider that the rogue already has a high attack bonus (+8 at 1st level easily) it doesn't seem like that bad of a trade to me. Could you explain?

 

[Smeelbo]

+2 average damage vs. +1 to hit. When you consider that the rogue already has a high attack bonus (+8 at 1st level easily) it doesn't seem like that bad of a trade to me. Could you explain?

Working from a concrete example.

At level 1, Illrogue's Sly Flourish is +8 vs. AC, 1d4+7.
Say against AC20.

With Nimble Blade and Combat Advantage:
1-8 Miss @ no damage each
11-19 Hit @ 2.5 (1d4) +7 (DEX + CHA) + 7 (2d6 Sneak) = 16.5 each x 9 hits = 148.5 damage
20 Crit @ 4 + 7 + 12 = 23 damage

That is 171.5 damage over 20 rounds, or 8.575 expected damage per round.

With Backstabber and Combat Advantage:
1-9 Miss @ no damage each
10-19 Hit @ 17.5 damage each = x 8 hits = 140 damage
20 Crit @ 27 damage

That is 167 damage over 20 rounds, or 8.35 expected damage per round.

That might not seem like much, but as AC rises, the difference is more pronounced.

Against AC25:

With Nimble Blade and Combat Advantage:
1-13 Miss @ 0
14-19 Hit @ 16.5 x 6 hits = 99 damage
20 Crit @ 23 = 122 damage total

With Backstabber and Combat Advantage:
1-14 Miss
15-19 Hit @ 17.5 x 5 hits = 87.5 damage
20 Crit @ 27 = 114.5 damage total

When you include the increased chance to hit with your encounters and dailies, with their effects and damage, well, +1 to hit is significantly better than +1 or 2 damage.

Indeed, bonuses to attack are such a premium, that many would say Nimble Blade is broken, as is Aid Another in Combat, and that only characters starting with 20's in their attack ability need play the game.

While I wouldn't go that far, I'd recommend grabbing every bonus to attack you can, and only when you've exhausted those, consider bonuses to damage rolls. I'd take Nimble Blade before Backstabber every time.

Smeelbo

 

[Istar]

Working from a concrete example.

At level 1, Illrogue's Sly Flourish is +8 vs. AC, 1d4+7.
Say against AC20.

With Nimble Blade and Combat Advantage:
1-8 Miss @ no damage each
11-19 Hit @ 2.5 (1d4) +7 (DEX + CHA) + 7 (2d6 Sneak) = 16.5 each x 9 hits = 148.5 damage
20 Crit @ 4 + 7 + 12 = 23 damage

That is 171.5 damage over 20 rounds, or 8.575 expected damage per round.

With Backstabber and Combat Advantage:
1-9 Miss @ no damage each
10-19 Hit @ 17.5 damage each = x 8 hits = 140 damage
20 Crit @ 27 damage

That is 167 damage over 20 rounds, or 8.35 expected damage per round.

That might not seem like much, but as AC rises, the difference is more pronounced.

Against AC25:

With Nimble Blade and Combat Advantage:
1-13 Miss @ 0
14-19 Hit @ 16.5 x 6 hits = 99 damage
20 Crit @ 23 = 122 damage total

With Backstabber and Combat Advantage:
1-14 Miss
15-19 Hit @ 17.5 x 5 hits = 87.5 damage
20 Crit @ 27 = 114.5 damage total

When you include the increased chance to hit with your encounters and dailies, with their effects and damage, well, +1 to hit is significantly better than +1 or 2 damage.

Indeed, bonuses to attack are such a premium, that many would say Nimble Blade is broken, as is Aid Another in Combat, and that only characters starting with 20's in their attack ability need play the game.

While I wouldn't go that far, I'd recommend grabbing every bonus to attack you can, and only when you've exhausted those, consider bonuses to damage rolls. I'd take Nimble Blade before Backstabber every time.

Smeelbo

What other things can you do to add to yout TH besides Nimble Blade.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

What other things can you do to add to yout TH besides Nimble Blade.

Use Piercing Strike (ROG at-will). It targets REF instead of AC which is usually at least 2 points lower than AC.

If you like Backstabber take it, it is a good feat. If you believe that you need that +1 to hit right from the start go with Nimble Blade. But if you chose Backstabber at lvl1 nothing prevents you from choosing Nimble Blade later on. -- So choose what ever you like best at lvl1 and get the rest later.

 

[Skallgrim]

Also, many undead have darkvision, so Stealth may be a bit harder (but halflings have no special ability to see in the dark anyway). If you have a subscription, there are some new 'undead fighter' feats and backgrounds in Dragon which could help you out. Many undead have relatively low perception scores (there are, of course, exceptions), so against zombies and the like, you should be able to use Stealth a good bit. Movement Exploits could help you funnel the undead to a nearby cleric (darn that range on Turn Undead!).

Halfling Artful Dodgers aren't optimized for undead, but I don't think that they are vulnerable either. I think that played intelligently, you should have a pretty effective character.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Start making a big roleplaying fuss about how your Rogue is a faithful of the Raven Queen who wants to send undead back to their grave...

There is a rogue Paragon path called : Raven Herald. It kicks ass against undead (and is still pretty good against anyone else). Prerequisite is you must worship the Raven Queen.

 

[ArtofSymmetry]

I really really feel like a heel for barging in with no constructive advice buuuut. I posted this question in another discussion and I feel it's misplaced and will not get replies, and you guys seem to be on topic. But I am currently making a Human Tactical Warlord, and I can't seem to get his ability scores correct. I need the strength and charisma for the abilities, and with my feat Tactical Assault, intelligence is good for bonus damage. Then dex for initiative? Or does that really matter compared to others. What's preferable, Improved Initiative or Human Perseverance. Sorry again. Gl with your rogue.
If it helps at all, I looked up some possible armor you could con your Dm into letting you use. Laughing Death Armor, gives resist 5 necrotic and is level 9. Repulsion Armor is pretty good early on, gives you an encounter that pushes any enemies away from you if they move adjacent. Lasts a full encounter and is level 2. At level 15 Zealots Armor would be pretty damn devastating. Btw these are all from the Adventurers Vault, if your dm does not have access to it currently PM me or something if you actually give a rip about the items.

EDIT: AAAAAHHH!!! SORRY DOUBLE POST!!!