Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

[Prestidigitalis]

Well, how good a face do you expect to be with a fighter build? If you have Diplomacy trained and a 12-14 Cha, you should be able to contribute in social situations, although you won't dominate them.

Maybe I'm basing my assessment too much on my own most recent campaign, where the DM has frequently treated less skillful attempts at social interaction as detrimental.

 

[DracoSuave]

Maybe I'm basing my assessment too much on my own most recent campaign, where the DM has frequently treated less skillful attempts at social interaction as detrimental.

Which is fine, and in a game where that is important, one should certainly invest in Charisma as a tertiary stat, and pick up a couple extra skills here and there when one can.


However, that still doesn't warrant shooting your character in the foot for his primary role (Yes, Melee Training (Cha) is doing just that) to be the best at charisma-based things. That's not necessary--a better option would be to be a hexblade or artful dodger rogue if you -need- that much 'face'.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I have every player at the table contribute. If a player wants to roll Diplomacy or Bluff, that's ok, but social roleplaying is not typically and primarily resolved via social skill rolls when I DM. It's resolved with roleplaying and possibly an occassional roll if the NPC is on the fence on something.

The die roll is for the exception (i.e. gaining an advantage that is difficult to achieve), not for the rule (i.e. talking to someone and interacting normally).

Absolutely. I still think that part of the point of social roleplaying games is to do the, uh, social roleplaying bit, and use rolls as you suggest. I've heard some people worry about people whose natural skill doesn't match their characters charisma, but I just assume that it is part of the DM's job to react appropriately. Eloquent player but Cha 5? I'm not going to pay much attention to you or give weight to your arguments. Player who has difficulty, but with 18 Charisma bard - you get the benefit of the doubt, and the NPCs respond to you as if you have 18 Charisma.

I do the same thing for physical skills sometimes. If the players tell me how they are going to rope their way across a ravine and it makes sense that it would be fairly easy and safe to do it that way, I don't bother with dice rolls. Any party can manage it. The players already solved that problem, move on.

Great idea - essentially it is the way we all used to do things back in the early days, and there is no reason not to do it now. Good call.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You need to go back and read the comment I was responding to. I wasn't the one who suggested a "13 in Int or Dex". That was UngeheuerLich, and I assume the reference was not to a Slayer but to a class that was not Dex-secondary.

If anything, I would lean towards a Melee Training (Dexterity) Slayer build, so you can keep your bullocks, because I don't need them.

And I was responding to the knight commentary...

dumping dex on a slayer who can´t chose diplomacy is a bit odd... somehow i just didn´t check the quote message in reply box...

 

[KarinsDad]

Absolutely. I still think that part of the point of social roleplaying games is to do the, uh, social roleplaying bit, and use rolls as you suggest. I've heard some people worry about people whose natural skill doesn't match their characters charisma, but I just assume that it is part of the DM's job to react appropriately. Eloquent player but Cha 5? I'm not going to pay much attention to you or give weight to your arguments. Player who has difficulty, but with 18 Charisma bard - you get the benefit of the doubt, and the NPCs respond to you as if you have 18 Charisma.

We fought a Dragon today that (with her allies) knocked every PC except mine unconscious at least once (some twice). It was the most touch and go encounter that we had ever played that did not result in a single PC dying (but oh, did they come close).

My PC ended up knocking the Dragon unconscious (while at 6 hit points and while the rest of the PCs were down). After we all healed up (which was fun because we were down to one healing potion, my PC was +0 for the Healing skill, and the other 4 PCs were making death saving throws), we tied up the Dragon and then woke her back up to question her. My PC has a 20 Cha (at level 3), and all of the Cha skills. But it was interesting that the DM never asked me to roll any of them. After grilling her a bit, I just told the Dragon that I had already achieved my goal of getting her treasure (nah, that didn't tick her off) and that if I ever saw her again, she was going to die. We let her live.

The next morning, our group was in a fairly serious encounter and the Dragon comes flying towards us. Most of the players were about to pee in their pants. 20 Cha or no 20 Cha, when you say the wrong thing and tick off a Dragon, a Diplomacy roll isn't going to change anything.

Great idea - essentially it is the way we all used to do things back in the early days, and there is no reason not to do it now. Good call.

Thanks.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

However, that still doesn't warrant shooting your character in the foot for his primary role (Yes, Melee Training (Cha) is doing just that) to be the best at charisma-based things. That's not necessary--a better option would be to be a hexblade or artful dodger rogue if you -need- that much 'face'.

I agree. I was using my Knight as a reference, and for her, the smart thing to do if I wanted to perk up other skills would have been to take Melee Training (Con) and then "dump" Strength (not an 8, but maybe 12 and no bumps). That would leave the option to pump Con and Cha, which might not be so terrible since it would also bring a much better Will defense to the table.

 

[giant.robot]

I figure this question is germane to the discussion so I'll post it here instead of starting a new thread. If I have a STR/DEX slayer the "Heroic Slayer" ability gives a bonus DEX modifier to weapon attacks, is this in addition to their STR bonus for MBAs and DEX bonus for MRAs?

I was thinking of a human slayer with 20 DEX and 14 STR with Master at Arms and Melee Training (DEX). Attacks with a Great Sword would get them a +7 to damage before any stances while a longbow would get a +10. Thanks to Melee Training I'd have a +7 attack don us before adding in weapon proficiency. All I'd be able to do is swing a sword and shoot arrows but I could do so pretty effectively and do crazy damage when I hit.

Also with the level 4 Quick Swap ability, when combined with Master at Arms, would it allow you to swap weapons as a free action?

 

[Mentat55]

To answer your first question, the Heroic Slayer ability is in addition to the normal damage bonus associated with MBAs and RBAs.

To answer your second question, Master of Arms and Quick Swap do not interact in that way. Master of Arms allows you to swap weapons as a minor action, as opposed to simply drawing a weapon as a minor action. Quick Swap lets you (1/round) draw or stow a weapon as a free action. To achieve what you want, you would need the Quick Draw feat and the Quick Swap class ability.

 

[Klaus]

I figure this question is germane to the discussion so I'll post it here instead of starting a new thread. If I have a STR/DEX slayer the "Heroic Slayer" ability gives a bonus DEX modifier to weapon attacks, is this in addition to their STR bonus for MBAs and DEX bonus for MRAs?

I was thinking of a human slayer with 20 DEX and 14 STR with Master at Arms and Melee Training (DEX). Attacks with a Great Sword would get them a +7 to damage before any stances while a longbow would get a +10. Thanks to Melee Training I'd have a +7 attack don us before adding in weapon proficiency. All I'd be able to do is swing a sword and shoot arrows but I could do so pretty effectively and do crazy damage when I hit.

Also with the level 4 Quick Swap ability, when combined with Master at Arms, would it allow you to swap weapons as a free action?

"Heroic Slayer" only adds Dex as a bonus to weapon *damage*.

Your 1st-level slayer with Str 14, Dex 20 and Melee Training (Dex) would have +10 to hit (+5 Dex, +3 prof, +1 class, +1 Master of Arms) with the bow and greatsword, and deal +7 damage with the sword (+2 Dex, +5 Dex) and +10 with the bow (+5 Dex, +5 Dex).

Also, Quick Draw and Master of Arms don't really mix. QD lets you draw or stow a weapon as a free action, MoA lets you stow *and* draw weapons with a single minor action. In most cases you'll use MoA, unless you're dazed or otherwise unable to take your full allotment of actions. Then you'd use QD.

 

[Storminator]

Just saw my first Slayer in action over the weekend. Underpowered was not what came to mind.

Killing machine? That's more like it...

PS