Heward's Handy Haversack = free Quickdraw? +Quiver of Ehlonna questions

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: ????

Moooooore specifically... 'how long' and pointy?

Well, I just talked a DM into letting me keep a Duom in mine...

and if you wanted to fill the 'long and pointy' space with 'short and pointy' (ie arrows, though those would need to be moved to the 'questionable value' quiver arrow to be used) do you think you could fit?

That's not something I'd allow as a DM. Short and pointy go in the arrow compartment. They won't fit in the javelin or spear compartment.

-Hyp.

 

[nookleer]

The Final Word..

Sorry to be replying to these so late (3 years) into the thread.. but I cant quite understand why people make things so complicated. Hope i am not being redundant.

Drawing something from a Quiver of Elohnna (Efficient Quiver) is a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The quiver reacts on the desires of its owner and brings that object to bear, thus the efficient part. There is no logical way to desire 60 arrows at once, although a DM could rule if a player were simple enough to desire all of them at once, then the quiver would "spit them out" messily as it emptied itself.

Having something in your hands is not the same as bringing that object to bear as an efficient weapon. Just because you have a bow and arrow in your hands doesnt mean you are ready to use them. I would rule that you'd need quickdraw to be able to bring the bow to bear fast enough to be a free action. I'd rule the same for HHHaversack with melee weapons, meaning the haversack is convenient enough to allow you to draw the weapon, but you arent coordinated enough to remove the sheath... bring the weapon to bear.. etc. in one smooth efficient movement.

Bags of Holding, Haversacks, Efficient Quivers, etc cannot be brought into a Rope Trick. It might help to see it as a bubble in space (or a tire), like how some lenses seem to make things stretch out. Double stretching an area is too much and reality is pierced (ie the tire pops), "flushing" the extradimensional spaces. The last line of Rope Trick reads,

"It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Bags of Holding, Haversacks, Efficient Quivers, etc cannot be brought into a Rope Trick. It might help to see it as a bubble in space (or a tire), like how some lenses seem to make things stretch out. Double stretching an area is too much and reality is pierced (ie the tire pops), "flushing" the extradimensional spaces. The last line of Rope Trick reads,

"It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one."

There's argument as to whether an extra-dimensional space is the same as a non-dimensional space.

To confuse things even more, there was an entry in the 3E Main FAQ:

Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding?
The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says that a bag of holding
placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane.
Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and
forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide also says that
when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it
opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any
creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there,
destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the
process. However, the description for Heward’s handy
haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This
implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and
portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding
could be placed inside another bag of holding with no
unusual effects.

It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing
nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are
bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes.
Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos.
Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting
the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of
holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same
mishaps when mishandled.

Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes,
bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own
extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to
occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding,
and the like.

... which seems to directly contradict the Rope Trick spell description.

-Hyp.

 

[nookleer]

Hmm..

People are human and make mistakes..

I guess they just didnt take it into account or wanted to keep things simple...

Still.. i think it would be simpler just to make extra and nondimensional spaces non-overlappable. There is no reason one couldnt go dimension hopping into "real" dimensions, as their reality is stable and held together by magics far too powerful to be interrupted by normal mortal effects. The Rope trick thing should still hold though.

 

[Shellman]

Hmm.. pretty much figured it would be a MEA to put things back in it, but wanted to see what others had to say, or if I was missing something.. hehe

As for the "like a bag of holding", a Bag of Holding says:

" If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined"

Wow.. never saw that before.. is that new for 3E? Anyways, the arrows would be in the quivers in the HHH, and therefore wouldn't ever "pierce" the Haversack, since arrows go pointy end down into a quiver..

Hmm.. that changes things.. so blunt weapons could go into a Haversack as well? (just as long as it isn't like a morningstar that has little pointy parts)..

So what about ? Quiver of Ehlonna ? It says that it can hold arrows, javelins, and bows.. it also says:

" Once the owner has filled it, she can command the quiver to produce any stored item she wishes. "

Just what *exactly* does that mean? Can I "command" my quiver to produce my bow in my hands? What about arrows? I'm confuzzled

One of my character's is using a Quiver of Ehlonna to store three different Great Swords in it. So i have a different Great Sword for alll occasions. Makes things pretty nifty when I finally run into that incorpereal creature no one else can hit, I just whip out the Ghost Touch Great Sword and proceed to waste the bad guy.

 

[drothgery]

One of my character's is using a Quiver of Ehlonna to store three different Great Swords in it. So i have a different Great Sword for alll occasions. Makes things pretty nifty when I finally run into that incorpereal creature no one else can hit, I just whip out the Ghost Touch Great Sword and proceed to waste the bad guy.

That sounds a lot cooler than what my Scout 3/Ftr 2 is doing; he's just keeping a few extra bows around in cases he loses his gauntlets of ogre power (which let him use the +4 Str, +2 bow that's his primary weapon) or otherwise gets his Str knocked down (so he keeps a standard-pull bow in the QofE along with a masterwork, +3 Str one).

 

[aimster]

One of my character's is using a Quiver of Ehlonna to store three different Great Swords in it. So i have a different Great Sword for alll occasions. Makes things pretty nifty when I finally run into that incorpereal creature no one else can hit, I just whip out the Ghost Touch Great Sword and proceed to waste the bad guy.

I've got a Wizard who is filling one with wands, rods and (eventually) staff or 3.

The Aimster

 

[ARandomGod]

While activating a magic item is a standard action, the Efficient Quivver* is a use activated item, so that you don't have to activate it yourself, it simply is active. You can, of course, turn it off if you wish to spend a standard action to turn off it's ability to produce whatever item you want, and then you may at some later point wish to spend a standard action to turn the item back on. But generally it's effect remains always on, and so the items are produced as you will it. Your GM may make up whatever special rules he wants to determine what sort of action thinking takes for your character.

Rupturing a bag of holding or other extradimensional space. Now this one is something that it clearly states can happen. But it doesn't say how. Personally I say that unless you're intentionally attempting to rupture the bag from the inside, then the bag can hold as many sharps as it wants. But if you grabbed a sword and attempted to hit the edges of the bag from the inside, the bag would definitely rupture.

Now, as for the Haversack producing items as a free action... how about this. Tie a ring around the outside of the haversack. Attach to this ring several small (~2.5 ft) chains, and on the other side of each chain attach a seperate wand. Put the wands inside the haversack. You can then reach into the haversack and get whatever wand you want as a free action... use the wand as a standard action, and drop the wand as a free action. Once you've done this, have your familiar** use it's move action and standard action to retrieve the wand and replace the wand in the haversack. Presto! One more use for a familiar.

*Note: intentional misspelling as opposed to my frequent unintentional ones, I like to spell it that way.

**It must be a familiar capably of performing such manipulations, obviously. Like a rat or a ferret/weasel.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

While activating a magic item is a standard action, the Efficient Quivver* is a use activated item, so that you don't have to activate it yourself, it simply is active. You can, of course, turn it off if you wish to spend a standard action to turn off it's ability to produce whatever item you want, and then you may at some later point wish to spend a standard action to turn the item back on. But generally it's effect remains always on, and so the items are produced as you will it. Your GM may make up whatever special rules he wants to determine what sort of action thinking takes for your character.

I'm not sure you can actually turn off a use-activated item, but you're certainly right in that retrieving an item from the Quiver does not require a standard action.

Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.

So you fill it up, then you can pull arrows from it as if it were a normal quiver, and pull weapons from it as if it were a normal sheath (meaning as a move action or combined with a move.)

Rupturing a bag of holding or other extradimensional space. Now this one is something that it clearly states can happen. But it doesn't say how. Personally I say that unless you're intentionally attempting to rupture the bag from the inside, then the bag can hold as many sharps as it wants. But if you grabbed a sword and attempted to hit the edges of the bag from the inside, the bag would definitely rupture.

I rule differently. If you throw a drawn sword in the quiver, there's a chance of rupture. If you throw a sheathed sword in the quiver, there isn't. I see no reason why the bag should be indestructible unless you want to rupture it. If that were the case, no reason to make a big deal about sharp objects in the first place. Just say it can't be pierced from the inside.

Now, as for the Haversack producing items as a free action... how about this. Tie a ring around the outside of the haversack. Attach to this ring several small (~2.5 ft) chains, and on the other side of each chain attach a seperate wand. Put the wands inside the haversack. You can then reach into the haversack and get whatever wand you want as a free action... use the wand as a standard action, and drop the wand as a free action. Once you've done this, have your familiar** use it's move action and standard action to retrieve the wand and replace the wand in the haversack. Presto! One more use for a familiar.

I love this idea! Though I'd simplify it to just handing the wand to the familiar after use, then letting the familiar put the wand away, without all the chains and rings and such. But great idea. Anything to make familiars more useful.

**It must be a familiar capably of performing such manipulations, obviously. Like a rat or a ferret/weasel.

Actually, I see no reason why a hawk/owl/raven couldn't grab a wand in its beak and stow the item. Unless you took the time to close the top of the haversack after you pulled the wand out...

 

[ARandomGod]

I'm I rule differently. If you throw a drawn sword in the quiver, there's a chance of rupture. If you throw a sheathed sword in the quiver, there isn't. I see no reason why the bag should be indestructible unless you want to rupture it. If that were the case, no reason to make a big deal about sharp objects in the first place. Just say it can't be pierced from the inside.

I think that's the most common rule. And, if you throw a drawn sword in, even my proposed ruling would give it a chance of rupturing. On the other hand, I can stow a drawn sharpened sword in a canvas bag without it piercing that bag easily. So why would it pierce a quiver or bag of holding just by being placed inside it? The only reason I can think of is because of the sword's weight. And here, I think, is where my thought process may differ from many other people's. A bag of holding can hold a LOT of weight. In my interpretation that weight is completely cancelled out, but the bag itself weighs a certain amount. A type one bag, for instance, weight 15 lbs, empty or full. It can carry 250 lbs. Now, from personal experience, if all that 250 lbs is pushing against the inside side of the bag, a 'sharp' corner doesn't have to be very sharp. The edge of a cardboard box will break that fabric. Not even necessarily a new cardboard box with the sharpest edge. That edge could be blunted to the size of a nickel, and it would still break. If that's not going to happen, then it's because the weight doesn't matter, and if the weight doesn't matter, then once again I can place a very, very sharp sword in even a cotton bag without piercing it!

I love this idea! Though I'd simplify it to just handing the wand to the familiar after use, then letting the familiar put the wand away, without all the chains and rings and such. But great idea. Anything to make familiars more useful.

That depends on if you want to move after taking your standard action. In my groups at any rate they've ruled that 'handing something off to someone' is a move action. And it's a move action for them to accept it. So dropping it and having it retrieved is the only way to go if you need to also use your move action. Personally I think that's a little harsh, and if they're going to spend a move action to accept it then it should be able to be considered a free action to hand it off, just like dropping it.

Still, it's a lovely idea, isn't it? I came up with it mostly in conjunction with an Eberron character I'm making... who's only going to have one level of spellcaster (going dragon disciple) and therefore can make good use of wands... Now look at the "eternal wand" in Eberron. 2 uses a day, unlimited 'charges'. Only up to third level spells, but still. For a character with only one caster level it's a benifit that it uses the wand's caster level. Turning retrieval and storage of a wand into a completely free action is just awesome.

Actually, I see no reason why a hawk/owl/raven couldn't grab a wand in its beak and stow the item. Unless you took the time to close the top of the haversack after you pulled the wand out...

I agree with you. But some GM's won't. If birds couldn't handle and manipulate sticks, they'd be pretty terrible nest builders, wouldn't they?