Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

[Thikket]

Hiya, everyone! A friend of mine believes that the Shadowdancer's ability Hide in Plain Sight mitigates the -20 Hide check penalty one incurs when one fires a ranged weapon from hiding.

I'd like someone clever (IE, any EN-World member, heh) to give a logical interpretation of this scenario. I expect heavily that this ability does not at all remove the penalty, but I will present his argument and the relevant texts nonetheless.

Though, the whole situation is long and kinda boring, so you might wanna stop reading now and check out better posts by better posters.

From the SRD:

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

The argument that the latter removes the former penalty (not paraphrased):

1) It does not state the "sniping" application as the only way to make a ranged attack from hiding. In most cases, this will be the only option available, but it does not ban you from using others if they are available.
2) The most difficult thing to hide is quick movements. Assuming at least reasonable competence in other areas, motion is going to be the deciding factor in effectiveness of hiding.
3) The "sniping" application is refering to ducking out of cover, taking a shot, then returning to cover (hopefully) before being spotted. Such an action is extremely difficult, especially with d&d weapons which are much larger than modern sniper rifles and require more clearance from cover to be used effectively (not getting your bow caught on your cover). There is a significant amount of movement, and it would be nearly impossible to hide from anyone making even the slightest effort to spot the attacker.
4) With "hide in plain sight" the motion factor is eliminated since the shooter can stand out of cover without losing the benefits of hiding. The only sign of their presence would be the arrow/bolt's flight to the target. Drawing and aiming are movement of a magnitude that is easy to conceal, and body movement is unnecessary. From a reality perspective, an enemy sniper's reloading/shifting aim is impossible to spot unless you are already focused on their exact location. And with a supernatural ability to hide, even that wouldn't be a definite betrayal of hiding.

My objection:

Nowhere in the Sniping call does it talk about you moving. This is one of those situations where "hide: action: usually none. normally you make a hide check as part of movement" does not imply -- that is, the bold face isn't present in this situation, as it is an exception. You're not making any movement to hide. In the purely mechanical abstraction of D&D, I see no reason why Hide in Plain Sight (which grants only the ability to hide without cover or concealment or distraction, when there are nearby shadows) would change this penalty at all.

Besides the fact that removing the penalty is terribly unbalaced (in my opinon, heh, but I'm obviously biased), can anyone come up with some neato ideas that prove one argument or the other as correct? Or perhaps a new interpretation all together that clearly shows the truth?

Thanks for helping solve this crazy little problem!
The still-lurking Thikket

 

[Abraxas]

Actually - the character isn't sniping by your definition (which appears to be make a single ranged attack and then hide without moving). He is, instead, making a single ranged attack and then using a move action to hide in plain sight. There would be no penalty - because there is no penalty associated with the HiPS ability.

 

[Thikket]

He is, instead, making a single ranged attack and then using a move action to hide in plain sight. [...] There would be no penalty - because there is no penalty associated with the HiPS ability.

I see. I hadn't thought of it this way, honestly. Does it matter, though, that this exists in the Hide skill description:

From the SRD:

When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

That seems to imply to me that one takes a -20 penalty to Hide in a round when one attacks... Or, am I misinterpreting?

 

[Starglim]

The Hide in Plain Sight ability has no impact on sniping one way or the other, except that it allows the character to do it in plain sight. If he successfully hides in plain sight, makes an attack, and is still within 10 feet of a shadow other than his own, he can immediately attempt to hide again in that shadow at a -20 penalty.

The only problem I see here is that your friend would like to avoid the second Hide check and the -20 penalty. Nothing in the Shadowdancer ability supports that view.

The Hide in Plain Sight ability does not mention anything about being a different type of action. It merely alters the requirements to make a Hide check.


edit: If the character does have cover and is unobserved when he hides, the Hide in Plain Sight ability is not required and has no effect. It doesn't change normal hiding into super-hiding.

 

[silentspace]

I agree with Abraxas.

Sniping is a defined action. You start hidden (your hide check beats their spot check), 10 or more feet away. You make a ranged attack. You "immediately hide again" if you make a new Hide check at a -20 penalty.

Alternatively, you can hide "while attacking", at a -20 penalty.

These both describe very similar cases. The only difference is that Sniping is limited to ranged attacks. In both cases, hiding is not an action, but part of an attack action. The -20 check is to see if you remain hidden.

Once you are spotted, you are no longer hidden, and cannot then hide unless you are able to reach cover or concealment. Unless you have some sort of special ability, such as the Hide In Plain Sight ability.

With Hide In Plain Sight, you can hide again. So when a Shadowdancer snipes, he makes a Hide check at a -20 penalty to see if he remains hidden. If the opponent beats the Shadowdancer's Hide check with his Spot check, the Shadowdancer is no longer hidden. If the Shadowdancer has a move action left, he can then attempt another Hide check, at no penalty.

 

[Camarath]

In both cases, hiding is not an action, but part of an attack action. The -20 check is to see if you remain hidden.

You are wrong on that point.

"Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

 

[crater]

So hiding whilst sniping is a move equivalent action, but what about hiding after a melee attack?

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

So can you make a melee attack and then hide at -20 as a move action? I would assume that you wouldnt be able to hide from the person you were attacking, but from other people. Without hide in plain sight, making a melee attack should make you visible to the target...

 

[silentspace]

You are wrong on that point.

"Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

Oh, so that's why its good to actually read the book, and not just the posted material

Funny how that's not part of the Sniping text, but a qualifier to something else. Anyway, if Sniping requires a move action, then simply don't do it. Fire an arrow. Then Hide In Plain Sight. Avoid the -20 penalty.

 

[crater]

Anyway, if Sniping requires a move action, then simply don't do it. Fire an arrow. Then Hide In Plain Sight. Avoid the -20 penalty.

As far as I can tell, even if you had Hide in Plain Sight you would still get a -20 penalty, but you just wouldnt need any cover or concealment to hide in.

 

[silentspace]

So can you make a melee attack and then hide at -20 as a move action? I would assume that you wouldnt be able to hide from the person you were attacking, but from other people. Without hide in plain sight, making a melee attack should make you visible to the target...

Well, the text says "while attacking". Seems pretty clear that hiding happens while attacking, in other words happens simultaneously while attacking, on the same action. Then again, I'm convinced the WotC was smoking crack while they wrote most of their stuff. And there might be fine print hidden in a Sage Advice column somewhere that gives an alternate definition of "while attacking."