Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

[silentspace]

As far as I can tell, even if you had Hide in Plain Sight you would still get a -20 penalty, but you just wouldnt need any cover or concealment to hide in.

It may be fruitless to use logic here, but let's try.

1. Hiding after a ranged attack (Sniping) requires a move action.

2. Hiding "while attacking" incurs a -20 penalty.

Applying both rules (and they both are core rules) would mean that when you actually make the ranged attack, you can attempt to remain hidden "while attacking" at a -20 penalty. If this check fails, you can immediately make another hide attempt as a move action, at the same -20 penalty. No?

What happens if you have Hide In Plain Sight?

You can still attempt to remain hidden "while attacking" at a -20 penalty. What about the second move-action "Sniping" attempt if the "while attacking" attempt fails? It seems clear that the second "Sniping" attempt is a special situation to the rule that once observed you cannot hide in plain sight (without the special ability). The basic rule is that you cannot hide while observed. Let's look at two examples.

If you were making a melee attack while trying to remain hidden, and fail your -20 check, you are now being observed. You cannot attempt to hide again, unless you had the special ability Hide In Plain Sight. If you had that special ability, you could attempt to hide, per the rules (need to be close to shadows), with no penalty.

If you were making a ranged attack while trying to remain hidden, and failed your -20 check, you are now being observed. You can attempt to hide again as a move action (following the Sniping rules) at a -20 penalty. However, if you had the Hide In Plain Sight ability, you could still Hide In Plain Sight without a penalty. Why would it be harder (by -20!) for a Shadowdancer to hide if he's hidden more than 10 feet away then if he's right next to his opponent? It seems that the intent is clear, Hide In Plain Sight does not incur a -20 penalty.

 

[crater]

Ok, I see where your coming from, but I reckon it would go something more like this:

Ranged Attack: You shoot once as an attack action, then hide as a move action at -20, regardless of Hide in Plain Sight. You get only one attempt to hide in the round, because the sequence of attack followed by hide is considered to be 'hiding whilst attacking'.

Melee Attack: As above but the person you attack will always see you unless you can Hide in Plain Sight.

If the hide attempt was not a move action you could theoretically do a full melee attack and still remain hidden.

 

[Aaron2]

Hiya, everyone! A friend of mine believes that the Shadowdancer's ability Hide in Plain Sight mitigates the -20 Hide check penalty one incurs when one fires a ranged weapon from hiding.

I have to agree with said friend. Normally, you can't hide while being observed and normally you are automatically observed when attacking. The special -20 sniping modifier is to allow you to attack and hide without the targets ever observing you. With Hide in Plain Sight, you can hide while you are observed anyway, thus avoiding the need to snipe.

One thing; If you did attack and then Hide in Plain Sight without taking the -20, I'd let the target see you for an instant and, thus, know your general location.


Aaron

 

[crater]

With Hide in Plain Sight, you can hide while you are observed anyway, thus avoiding the need to snipe.

Ok, but would you allow a shadowdancer to do a full rounds ranged attack and still attempt a hide without penalty?

 

[Len]

I have to agree with said friend. Normally, you can't hide while being observed and normally you are automatically observed when attacking. The special -20 sniping modifier is to allow you to attack and hide without the targets ever observing you. With Hide in Plain Sight, you can hide while you are observed anyway, thus avoiding the need to snipe.

Right, because it says "You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." If you don't bother to conceal yourself you don't take the penalty.

 

[mikebr99]

I have to agree with said friend. Normally, you can't hide while being observed and normally you are automatically observed when attacking. The special -20 sniping modifier is to allow you to attack and hide without the targets ever observing you. With Hide in Plain Sight, you can hide while you are observed anyway, thus avoiding the need to snipe.

One thing; If you did attack and then Hide in Plain Sight without taking the -20, I'd let the target see you for an instant and, thus, know your general location.


Aaron

HiPS simply allows you to hide while being observed, and drops the requirement of concealment to hide behind, as you are using "shadow" to supernaturally fill that requirement.

Now... that said, if your thief wants to attack with a ranged weapon, and get his SA damage, then he has to have been hidden last round, so he could snipe (@ -20 to hide DC). Which really should have been called a full round action... as it takes a std. action (1 attack - ranged), and then a move action to re-hide.

Mike

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

The only thing I can think of to support your friends analysis is that the -20 comes from "You are almost observed." situation that the hide in plain sight ability specifically states you can hide while you are being directly looked at. (observed)

However, if your going to stack the -20 penalty for sniping I would say you should give them a -20 penalty any time they are being observed. Considering the fact that the -20 for sniping COMES from the fact that someone has a good idea from which way the arrow came (saw it fly by or it hit them) and is looking your direction. All the sniping does is make you "nearly observed" thus the -20 penalty. Since the Hide In Plain Sight specifically states you can hide within 10 feet of shadow while being observed (looked at directly), and no mention of penalty is written into the description of that ability, I would say that your friend is correct.

Of course, on the DM's advocate side, I'd say for balance purposes he gets stuck with the -20 penalty treating the HiPS ability almost like the invisibility spell, after attacking, for 1 round afterward, you gain all benefits except the ability to hide while being observed.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Felix]

Hello all.

I must say that DnD handles the sniping mechanic rather ham-fistedly, although this tends to be, for PCs, not a bad thing. Consider:

--For a sniper to be effective, he wants to be far away from the target when he shoots. In DnD, this translates to 7 to 10 range incriments.
--Snipers generally rely on a one-shot-one-kill method (thank you Tom Berringer). In DnD, this is very hard to do at higher levels as HP rise.
--Snipers do not work in large groups, they work by themselves or with a partner. In any case, not with a whole bunch of people 20' away. This makes creating a PC "Sniper" hard to do because when the party encounters trouble, the sniper has to run off and hide, leaving his friends vulnerable for a little while.

So you're more likely to have NPC snipers/sniper teams. If you create DnD mechanics that model the long-range one-shot-one-kill modern snipers, you're going to have a lot of dead PCs, and some upset players. So while the sniping mechanics are clunky, it's not really that bad a thing.

"How are they clunky?"
While laying prone with concealment and unmoving, a crossbow sniper has no hide penalty. As soon as he _moves his trigger finger_ he becomes much, much easier to see. While this is indeed a special case, it recieves no special consideration in the RAW mechanics. I think the designers exaggerate the ability of the target to pinpoint where the attack came from. (but I also think they did it for a good reason, and in the PCs favor)

 

[Spatula]

I would have to agree with Aaron's statements. The -20 is to remain hidden without ever being observed. So the shadowdancer can hide again at no penalty (taking a move action to do so), but then his opponents will automatically know where he is. Or the shadowdancer can take the -20 penalty and potentially (depending on the opponents' Spot checks) not reveal himself at all.

 

[Sejs]

HiPS in no way mitigates or removes any numeric penalties associated with actions and how they interact with the hide skill. HiPS lets you use the hide skill when you are within 10' of some form of shadow even while being observed, or otherwise lacking cover/concealment.

That's it.

If you want to Snipe, you still take the -20 penalty to your subsequent hide check. HiPS would let you do this in the middle of an open field at high noon while being watched by 50 guards (as long as you're within 10' of some kind of shadow, mind.). But you still take the -20 to hide because they just saw an arrow come whizzing out of your location and thunk into some guy. You need to be pretty slick when it comes to hiding in order to not give yourself away when you've just let loose a fast moving, attention getting object that traces a more-or-less straight line between you and your target.