Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

[Aaron2]

If you want to Snipe, you still take the -20 penalty to your subsequent hide check. HiPS would let you do this in the middle of an open field at high noon while being watched by 50 guards (as long as you're within 10' of some kind of shadow, mind.). But you still take the -20 to hide because they just saw an arrow come whizzing out of your location and thunk into some guy. You need to be pretty slick when it comes to hiding in order to not give yourself away when you've just let loose a fast moving, attention getting object that traces a more-or-less straight line between you and your target.

With HIPS, you can Hide even if someone is staring directly at you so it doesn't matter if you attack or not since they are already looking at you. You don't care if you give yourself away. When using HIPS, you don't actually snipe. Instead you attack, thus giving away your location, and then Hide as two seperate actions. Ordinarily if you attack, you are automatically observed so Hiding afterwards is pointless.

That being said. The sniping entry is poorly written because the line "then immediately hide again" implies that you are momentarily unhidden which disagrees with the previous statement that you can "hide while attacking".


Aaron

 

[Diirk]

Considering that with HiPS you can technically run up to someone and full attack them and they only get a +20 on their spot check (or rather, you get a -20 penalty to hide for hiding while attacking), I don't see whats so overpowering about a single ranged shot with a following hide check made at no penalty.

As for treating HiPS as invisibility.... well thats a 2nd level spell, even greater invis is only 4th level.. considering that you get into shadowdancer at around 7-8 minmum, I don't really see the problem with them having one power that emulates a same level magic spell (with luck, and a high skill in hide)

 

[Stormrunner]

Sorry, guys, but I have to agree with Sejs. HiPS merely removes the need to have cover or concealment, it doesn't negate the -20 penalty.
However...
Normally, you cannot hide while being observed. You have to break the observer's line-of-sight, either by ducking behind cover or concealment, using a smoke/flash bomb, or yelling "Wow, look at that!" and rolling high on a Bluff check. The last two impose a -10 penalty, and there must be a hiding place within 1 foot per point of Hide skill. The shadowdancer requirement that there be a shadow within 10 feet implies the ability is similar to the "distraction hide". (OTOH, the ranger version doesn't require ANY hiding place within 10', but does insist that the character be "in natural terrain", so it seems to be more a matter of camouflage.)

The way I've always played it is: The -20 penalty assumes that you're being careful not to rustle any leaves, etc. If you make the roll at -20, your arrow came zipping out of nowhere and whacked them, they don't know exactly from where (though they can probably tell it came "from the left" or whatever). If you fail the roll, you made enough movement/noise to give away your position.
The shadowdancer says "I don't care, I have HiPS". He pops up, shoots, then uses a move action to "fade into the shadows" at no penalty. Fair enough - but he's just spent his entire round attacking, then hiding. The foe now knows what square he's in, so they can shoot back (with the 50% miss penalty for an invisible target), drop area spells on his location, etc. If he bothers to take the -20 like a mere mortal, then the enemy doesn't know his exact square and can't shoot him (unless they guess lucky).

 

[Darmanicus]

Fire an arrow. Then Hide In Plain Sight. Avoid the -20 penalty.

My cohort's so happy now!

 

[mikebr99]

My cohort's so happy now!

Well, don't be giving him sneak attack damage... unless the target is losing his DEX some other way.

Mike

 

[crater]

There seems to be quite a few different interpretations, I dont think we're going to sort this out.

 

[jessemock]

There seems to be quite a few different interpretations, I dont think we're going to sort this out.

It is pretty ugly, isn't it.

But step at a time it seems that:

Round 1: Hide--we'll assume normally?

R2: start hidden, Snipe as FRA: attack "normally" as standard action, re-hide as move action at -20.

I don't know what 'hide while attacking' means for this. Surely, there's no additional Hide check at -20 during the attack phase? And the Hide check is made as a move action, not "while attacking", right?

I think that the argument that HiPS has nothing to do with Sniping holds water:

R1: Hide, as above.
R2: Attack from hiding as SA--this puts the character in Plain Sight. HiPS as MA "normally".

What?

 

[Aaron2]

R1: Hide, as above.
R2: Attack from hiding as SA--this puts the character in Plain Sight. HiPS as MA "normally".

What?

What is wrong with this example? Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Is there normally any restiction to SAing while Hidden when the target knows the general location (i.e. square) the attacker is in? If so, I haven't found it.


Aaron

 

[mikebr99]

The point is... if you were hidden last round, and want to attack with a ranged weapon and stay hidden this round, then you use the sniping mechanic... which gives you one attack and a move action (which can encompass actual movement (or not) w/ the Hide skill @ -20 DC). And this is all you can do in the round. And this should allow someone with SA to get extra damage, unless some other rule negates it.

HiPS have no benefit, other then dropping the requirement for some kind of concealment to hide behind, and replacing it with the supernatural ability to hide behind/in "shadow".

Now, you could also have been hidden last round, and fire your weapon normally (ie. not trying to remain unseen) this round, then re-hide as part of your movement (without the -20 penalty). But this wouldn't allow SA, unless some other rule allows it. If there isn't some kind of concealment with which to move completely behind to break the line of sight between you and your target, then you do need HiPS to complete this however.


Mike

 

[crater]

I'm with mikebr99 on this one. Being able to make a ranged sneak attack and remain unseen is very useful even at only one attack per round, it should always have a -20 modifier.

Otherwise you can always increase your Use Magic Device skill, get a scroll of Greater Invisibility and hope your enemy can't see invisible.