Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

[Thikket]

I hate to bring this up one more time, but I'm going to try to clarify everything I've found. I agree (of course, heh) with Mike's interpretation completely.

If you make a Standard Action while hidden with a ranged attack and want to get the benefits from it:
1. You make a Standard Action, deny your target their Dex to AC (as an invisible attacker).
2. You must immediately make a Move-Equivalent Action to rehide (or remain hidden, same difference) at a -20 penalty. If you pass, you're still hidden; if you fail, you're no longer hidden. In either case, you would deal sneak attack damage if applicable.

If you make a Standard Action while hidden with a ranged attack and don't care about the benefits:
1. You make a Standard Action or Full Attack action, but your target is not denied their Dex to AC (just as any normal person could do). You are revealed.
2. Afterwards, you can take a Move-Equivalent Action (if you have it) to rehide at no penalty as long as your opponents are not paying attention to you. If you pass, you're hidden; if you fail, you're still not hidden.

I was absolutely incorrect in my idea that hiding after Sniping isn't an action, as someone kindly pointed out:
"However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

I am of the opinion that Hide in Plain Sight does not change this situation whatsoever except to allow you more opportunities to hide (IE, everything normal (cover, concealment) and also shadows).

The second option still seems like a legit tactic to me, one defensive rather than offensive. The former is great for rogues; the latter seems like something most archers would try for, just to avoid blows (like the cowards they are!).

Whatcha think? Am I being dense again? Certainly stubborn, at the least...
Thanks for all the great thought-provoking replies!
Thikket

Relevant quotes reposted:
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

(note that one can infer the Action taking process immediately from these two quotes)

 

[lPeregrine]

Ok, as the "friend" who started this whole debate, I guess it's my duty to post my thoughts on this subject. First, I blame the authors for poorly wording a generic case into one that can be interperted to be the only option. It just makes no sense that characters with enhanced hiding skills/feats/etc are banned from using them effectively. I imagine the idea of a stealthy sniper simply wasn't a priority for the rules authors, so the rules for it didn't get much attention. That said, here's my case for removing the -20 penalty:

1) As I said earlier, movement is the single hardest thing to conceal (assuming you're not wearing bright orange clothes). Notice the exact wording of the rule: "You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." Meaning the -20 penalty is because you have to quickly reconceal yourself before anyone spots you. Not only do you have the motion of trying to dive back to cover, but you have to hide very quickly. A shadowdancer's hide in plain sight ability makes it possible to "hide" without actually moving. So why should the same penalty apply for an action that is much easier to conceal and requires much less effort?

2) The "sniping" application of the hide skill is a generic ability that any character can use. In most cases, hiding requires cover that a character can not shoot through. So to shoot from cover and get back to that cover to hide would require Shot on the Run to provide the two move actions. The sniping application is just an option to allow shooting from cover (otherwise impossible) without designing a character around the concept. There is no reason (other than poor wording) that a character can not snipe using another method.

3) A 7th/8th level wizard or sorcerer (same as level 1 shadowdancer) can "hide in plain sight" and attack freely with Greater Invisibility, getting both defensive bonuses and denying their opponents their dex bonus to defense. It makes no sense that a character built around the concept of stealthy sniping is significantly weaker at their primary skill.

4) (in reply to Thikket's 2nd case) In both cases you would get a sneak attack bonus. The sequence of events:
-In some previous round, sucessfully hide.
-Make ranged attack. At the moment the arrow is released, the target is unaware of the attack and is a valid target for a sneak attack.
-Decide whether to hide or not (and any other actions), affecting all future actions.

What happens after the attack is made does not change the target's ability to defend themselves at the moment of the attack. Even if you completely abandon hiding by making the attack, it's far too late to defend against an arrow that has already hit the target or a sword that has already removed your head. Sneak attack ability has to be based on the situation at the moment the attack is started.

And in any case, note the exact wording: then immediately hide again". Your hiding is lost no matter which action you take. The only difference is what (if anything) you do to regain it after the attack.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

You know, someone mentioned "If the guy hides using HiPS the enemies know what square he is in? Well, one little mistake you made. That same PC can quite easily move 15' as part of his hide action. Thus, they have NO F'ing clue which square he is in. Since Hiding allows movement at half for no penalty.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[PallidPatience]

I have a line of reasoning that hasn't been brought up yet that I think has a lot of bearing on why it's so hard to hide after you attack someone like that:

If a guy with HiPS just leaps out of nowhere, fires an arrow, then tries to hide, don't you think the guys he just attacked are going to be staring at him VERY attentively now? Wouldn't that make it just a BIT harder for him to use that nifty shadow in which he's trying to conceal himself? It has nothing to do with WHAT he's hiding behind/in/under/above/etc... It has EVERYTHING to do with the desired victims' sudden staring at the sniper.

 

[Len]

The whole point of Hide in Plain Sight is that you can "use the Hide skill even while being observed." There's nothing in the rules about how hard they're staring.

 

[Abraxas]

If a guy with HiPS just leaps out of nowhere, fires an arrow, then tries to hide, don't you think the guys he just attacked are going to be staring at him VERY attentively now? Wouldn't that make it just a BIT harder for him to use that nifty shadow in which he's trying to conceal himself? It has nothing to do with WHAT he's hiding behind/in/under/above/etc... It has EVERYTHING to do with the desired victims' sudden staring at the sniper

The only problem with this line of reasoning is that a shadow dancer can hide with no penalty if within 10 feet of a non-personal shadow, while wearing a lime green jumpsuit, on an other wise featureless, brightly lit plain surrounded by 50 people all watching him intently. How exactly does firing a missile weapon at one of them change this?

HiPS have no benefit, other then dropping the requirement for some kind of concealment to hide behind, and replacing it with the supernatural ability to hide behind/in "shadow".

Actually, HiPS grants the supernatural ability to hide when near shadows. There is no requirement to be in the shadow or have the shadow between you and your observer. The fact that HiPS completely elimintaes the need for the SD to have cover or concealment wrt his victim, effectively negating an infinite penalty to his hide check, is enough for me to believe that the SD does not suffer the -20 penalty. YMMV

 

[PallidPatience]

But with the sniping application of the Hide skill, the point of the penalty seems to be that your having gotten their attention puts them more on guard and makes them more watchful of you.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

How MANY times does it HAVE to be said.


SRD:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

As far as I am concerned, a class ability OVERRULES what the normal rules say. Just like feats do. And when the shadowdancer ability says you HIDE while being OBSERVED*, that to me means you can snipe then hide with no penalty, even if they are staring at you. The entire REASONING behind the -20 penalty to hide after sniping at someone, is that fact that someone just got shot, and they are looking in your direction but have not pinpointed you.

Now read below the definition of being observed. Explain to me where that is in no way crystal clear and that you are confused?

*(Definition of observed)
v. ob·served, ob·serv·ing, ob·serves
v. tr.
To be or become aware of, especially through careful and directed attention; notice.
To watch attentively: observe a child's behavior.
To make a systematic or scientific observation of: observe the orbit of the moon.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Abraxas]

But with the sniping application of the Hide skill, the point of the penalty seems to be that your having gotten their attention puts them more on guard and makes them more watchful of you

I would agree with you if they had entries under the hide skill describing penalties for extra watchful characters. The fact that even casual observation negates any chance of hiding at all under normal circumstances means the victim being extra watchful changes your ability to hide not at all.

HiPS is a supernatural ability that makes the impossible possible, it is much more difficult for me to rationalize the penalty than to rationalize the lack of a penalty - so I go with whats easier for me to explain.

 

[PallidPatience]

Yes, but a halfling 7 rogue/1 shadowdancer with the elite array (putting the 15 in Dex to have a total of 19) with a +1 mithral chain shirt of improved shadow could easily have a +29 modifier to Hide. With the lack of Spot on a skill list for Wis-emphasizing classes, this rogue will very nearly ALMOST ALWAYS be hidden. With your interpretation of the HiPS ability, this rogue could pull off a full round of sneak-attacks with a successful, non-penalized Hide Check. After all, he can hide in plain sight, even with all the attention on him.
At a higher level, we'll say 12, Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 5, the halfling could have added Stealthy and Skill Emphasis/Focus (Hide) to his repertoire, as well as an additional five skill points in Hide and the improvement of his Dex to 20 and his armor to Greater Shadow, allowing him an additional +16, placing him at +45 to Hide at level 12...


edit: Minor miscalculation, and addition of feats that are impossible to achieve.